Politician Archive
Thread: focused discussion for 1/19 changes (I'm only reading this thread!)
Pappi wrote:
oookay, so the "concise", "short", and "respect" went down the hole... nope, I didn't read those posts, nor will I take them into consideration. if you can't be civil, don't post at all.
update on TC: the skillpoint refund seems to work now, however when I tried to go train I realized I ran out of (dev-given) xp, and TC was down shortly after. I'll check on it later today.
p.s.: this includes fonts/colors that hurts my eyes, as I've warned in the initial post... really really hard to read, and as you can see I have enough posts to deal with as is.
seems that TC will be flooded this weekend, so I'm not sure if I'll get to test anything. I'll have to see.
Message Edited by Pappi on 01-21-2005 05:24 PM
Ok, so should we use really small words to? Are long sentances ok? What if we indent 6 spaces instead of 5?
I think it would be better if you take the time to read the posts and ideas on this very important change to our profession so that you can take a good batch of feedback to the Dev's. Playing "hall monitor" with posts and making things unneccisarily difficult is not going to help us in the bit. At least this hasn't turned into a "Ice Cream" flavor thread yet.
This decision will decide the fate of the Politician Profession. Are we a viable profession? What affect will this have on Player Cities?
Let's take the time to get these questions discussed and make sure that what happenes is best for the profession, because I guarentee that if this change goes through, there will be no going back folks. So let us be Cival, but also let's try not to be petty.
KardenTyrell wrote:
Since the change is allready there, might I suggest that politician changes skillpoint usage to 25? 5 Novice, 4 Master, 1 skillpoint per skillbox
I like this idea, some skillpoints involved is better than none. At least when the "UBER L33T" kiddies try to become mayors with full pvp templetes they will have to think about spending the points still.
Not that its a bad thing, i like the idea of other becoming mayor but lets not make it so easy that anyone can. Im tickled to death im going to be getting some sp back but im afraid that my guild city "Fallen outmember" whom did not take there houses when they left the guild will come back out anger destroy the city to get at the former elder.
KardenTyrell's idea is good, however remove 4 skillpoints to master as master only gives a badge and title. I fear when this patch hits, it will be a dark day on Phalanx Naboo, Bloodfin.
Its been a pleasure and honor serving as elected mayor of Phalanx, Its sad I will be unable to finish my 4 month term.
SamRebo wrote:
Pappi wrote:
oookay, so the "concise", "short", and "respect" went down the hole... nope, I didn't read those posts, nor will I take them into consideration. if you can't be civil, don't post at all.
update on TC: the skillpoint refund seems to work now, however when I tried to go train I realized I ran out of (dev-given) xp, and TC was down shortly after. I'll check on it later today.
p.s.: this includes fonts/colors that hurts my eyes, as I've warned in the initial post... really really hard to read, and as you can see I have enough posts to deal with as is.
seems that TC will be flooded this weekend, so I'm not sure if I'll get to test anything. I'll have to see.Message Edited by Pappi on 01-21-2005 05:24 PM
Ok, so should we use really small words to? Are long sentances ok? What if we indent 6 spaces instead of 5?
I think it would be better if you take the time to read the posts and ideas on this very important change to our profession so that you can take a good batch of feedback to the Dev's. Playing "hall monitor" with posts and making things unneccisarily difficult is not going to help us in the bit. At least this hasn't turned into a "Ice Cream" flavor thread yet.
This decision will decide the fate of the Politician Profession. Are we a viable profession? What affect will this have on Player Cities?
Let's take the time to get these questions discussed and make sure that what happenes is best for the profession, because I guarentee that if this change goes through, there will be no going back folks. So let us be Cival, but also let's try not to be petty.
I've already taken the time to contact every dev I can get my hands on, and have been on this issue before the patches hit TC. if you think you guys are going to help by insulting each other's ideas then go ahead, but don't waste my time. I still have to represent folks who want to improve the situation instead of yelling at each other.
Message Edited by Pappi on 01-21-2005 09:16 PM
Pappi wrote:
begin your post by mentioning which issue(s) you want to address, and make a nice clean post with your comments.
ok Pappi lets go with a few points
- House maint: Nice idea, except it should have a buffer, say 30-60 days if a player hasnt logged in then let the house vanish. it should not exist perpectually, as any toon with 1 mil in the bank would take well over 2 years before the house even became condemmed. also clarification on whether thats for owners only or if the bank would also be pulled from players on admin
- 0 skill points: Im in favor of this as things are currently 100%, one thing rarely mentioned here is that anyone that had a politician main toon and wanted jedi alsonow hasto choose between the two eventually. to build a city you may need master er 4444, to RUN a city you only need 0120 or 0210 i forget which. but until poli gets a major overhaul i think this or just 1 sp skill boxes are the best for now.
- griefing aka city stealing: someone else pointed it out but ill mention it again. first you gotta LET them move in to town, use zoning to screen who gets in. Second, if poeple in town do try and take over you still have 1 week minmum to get enough votes back to stay in. Third, so you lose, either you didnt work hard enough to get those votes to keep office, or your citizens didnt care enough to vote and thus keep you in office. If you didnt work hard enough you deserve to lose, if the residents didnt care enough to vote for you then they deserve to get ruled by whoever won. Just like the real world.
- Dev cop out: Dont see it this way, the FACT is we have a very specialized limited use profession. we also are way down on the list for major overhauls and honestly i would much prefer that ALL, well most atleast, core bugs be fixed, the combat upgrade be completed, and the gcw be overhauled first before anymore profession overhauls occur. also many professions have needed overhauling long before cities even existed, flame me for saying it but ive done every profession and the truth is there are some much worse off then we are.
Now the way i see things is for a real poli revamp to occur were looking at between 9-12 months time before it happens as its already been stated the cu, the gcw, and then profession revamps which smuggler and squad leader will most likely come first. thats bad for us short term but im going to try and play the voice of reason for once.
- Bugs: lets get what we already are supposed to have working 100% before we add more to complicate things. fix the city specializations to do what there are supposed to, make the taxes work right, quit resetting shuttleport fees to 100 cu on reboot ect.We wont get everything thats broke fixed at once but im sure fixes willcome long before a major overhaul comes out
- CU/GCW: Fixing that WILL be good for mayors AND cities. Militias been a dead joke since since the devs copped out and nerfed citywarn instead of dealing with the griefers directly. We also know how weak a command cityban is. With a renewed emphasis on combat and pvp the devs have to give us more power to defend our bases we drop in town. i would expect some form of citywarn or other means of helping to police towns to come along with these changes
- Upgrade timeline: ok we wont be number one one the must revamp list but well still gain benefits from other upgrades. ID's could get city salons, Architects new decorations/structures, things dont have to be a politician specific change to benefit the city.
Back to the origion issue tho, whether its 0 sp and just get the xp to master, or its 77 sp it doesnt change the fact that you still need to get the votes to earn the xp to get the levels. Whether its 0 or 77 youll have either good or bad like any other profession, the bad will get weeded out and the good ones will do just fine. This clean enough Pappi 
Message Edited by TxRoadDawg on 01-22-2005 03:02 AM
TxRoadDawg wrote:
This clean enough Pappi
yes it is, thank you.
in response to your second list:
bugs were submitted on a separate list from the top 5. no timeline as usual, but they're known (especailly the sales tax bug, I've been stressing it since it's the main revenue of many cities.
no date on the GCW revamp, however militia/city defenses is on our top 5. since cities and housing is now on a separate forum, I'm going to only deal with city/housing issues that are directly related to politicians (which is pretty much everything, but the other forum includes topics that are not in my area such as non-player cities.)
The argument that zero skillpoints will open the floodgates for hostile takeovers and people starting cities just to get the Master Politician badge does not hold water. A Novice can already defeat a Master in an election for an expenditure of 15 points, which people who really do just want to grief your city are already more than happy to pay. Politician skillpoint costs are NOT a barrier to entry for dabblers. They ARE a barrier to progress for fulltime mayors who have to sacrifice other parts of their template or forever drop and relearn Politician boxes. Bring on the change and let's see how many cities are taken over or how many Master farming outposts spring up: my guess is no more than now.
At the same time I must put myself in the "boo" column on the maintenance issue. Just as our enthusiasm for the changes which allowed inactive mayors to be voted out more easily was tempered by the reduction in XP gain for many mayors, so again we are presented with something we asked for alongside something we didn't ask for and don't want. Whilst having maintenance automatically paid into houses when the owner walks in will prevent active players accidentally losing their structures (a good thing), the negative consequences of abandoned buildings staying in the world forever have been much discussed. Several people have posted ideas on how to tackle this problem. Any one of them is better than what was posted in the TC patch notes a few days ago.
I couldn't agree with you more. Boldsfor the QFE!!!
Kenbow2 wrote:
PROS AND CONS OF ZERO SKILLPOINTS
I have been Mayor inmy city on Kauri since its creation. It is very rewarding to see my city grow and flourish to what it is today. I would like to express my views on several previous posts...
Yes, I had to make a second account mule to run my city because the skillpoints was killing me. I am Master Commando/TKM with some smuggler skills (FD & terminal slice). Thus, i had no free skill points near the end of my template for polititian. This is when I created my mule mayor on a second account. The funny thing is, everyone knows that the mule is really me (from my main). I am voted in every election because of my RL personality and kindness toward everyone in the city and my new ideas and problem solving to make the city a better place to live. It doesn't really matter if I am on my main or my mule in the big picture. So why not just let my MAIN have the politian skills for 0 skillpoints and then I would be the TRUE mayor of my city. And, I could also go out and battle with my fellow citizens.
I look at it like this... A Mayor is a representation of the people. A city that is mostly healers and dancers should have a Master Doc/Master CM as Mayor if that person wants to run for mayor. Or a city that is all mostly combat professions should have the most respected player (stacker) run for mayor if he wants too. What about the triple profession crafter who wants to run for mayor because everyone knows and likes him/her? In other words, the current politian skill points only prevents a potential mayor from beingthe fully developed combat or crafter profession they want to be also.
To me, a good mayor is more a RealLife skill then a game skill. If i am master politian, players dont like me more because of a +10 friendly effect modifier I have. Combat and crafters are different. I could be fat and sluggish in real life, but my TKA will still mitigate and dodge damage just as effectively. But for a mayor, it is different. The real skill is in the person, not the skill boxes. As said on previous posts, once your city is up and running you only need 0120 politian, if that.
Now on to the fears of 0 skill points. Some worry of a "hostile take over" from anyone who can now go out and get the profession. I am not worried about this, and let me tell you why. I have 60+ citizens in my city. So lets say someone presently in my city decides to run against me... no big threat there. So he/she registers to run then casts his 1 vote. Big whoop! Me and my alt can make that 2 to 1 votes in a minute. Ok, so he has some friends that vote for him... assuming I am doing such a bad job that these people would vote for him anyways. So now he has like 6 votes. I have at least a week to get more than that, and any decent mayor will have loyal citizens that will blow the other guys votes out the water.
SO what if someone new comes in and takes over? Well, first he has to become a citizen. Any mayors running their city without zoning rights on is just asking for trouble. IMO, no responsible mayor would ever allow a city to run without zoning enforced. And if a brand new citizen can run against me and get enough votes to beat me, then shame on me.
Since I am on my main 90% of the time, and my alt 10% on the time, my citizens are really voting for the type of person I (my main) am, and they know me mostly through my main char. But yet they are voting for a mule mayor that represents me. IMO, just eliminate the middle man, and letthe citizens just vote for my MAIN character. I agreewith becoming politians with zero skillpoints.
And what if you lose somehow anyways? Well if the new mayor does a crappy job for the next 3 weeks, then run against him againand this time beat him.
Last, there was a previous post that went something like this... "Its not fair that I put all this work into my city and then someone can come along and takemy cityover." Keyword being "my" city. Its not your city, and its not other the mayor's city. IT IS THE PEOPLE'S CITY. This is the life of politics.Mayors speaking of a city as their our personal city talk like dictators. Yes, I understand one's attachment to a city, as i myself am very attached to mine. ButI feel that i do such a good job as mayor, that 0 skill points would not be an issue. And yes, I know I used the verbage "my city" in the top of my post, but I am referring to it as "my city" because I am a citizen there, not because I am the mayor there.
If anything, a mayor's race should be about the most qualified and most poular/likable canidate. There should be run-offs between players back and forth all the time. With more qualified people able to become politians with 0 skill points, it will only make beingpart of the political system, well... more political... like it should be.
Please feel free to comment on any of my above remarks and thank you for listening.
/gets off soapbox
LaurieNabierre wrote:
One thing I would like to see is admins of the building given the ability to enter a condemmed house and settle its bill. SWG has always been a good game for people who are not hardcore, because they can take time off when life needs it, without having to worry about too many reprecussions.
This raises a contentious issue but I do feel I need to mention it. Ghost citizens and ghost structures are an issue for a large number of folks. People have them and some situations are more legitamate than others in that sometimes an active crafter on a server will rent lots from an active combat character or a Mayor recruits an active combat character to be a resident in a city when that combat character may normally not really care whether (s)he does or does not. Of course there are other situations where cross galaxy lot trades happen and there is alot of conflict about whether this is good or bad, right or wrong.
As I mentioned before I'd like to have visible signs of the condemned status which would happen at 25% without automatic bank payment option and destruction at 0%. I suggested smoke and fire and someone else suggested "CONDEMNED". I'd like to take that a step further and suggest it would have a sign "<OWNER NAME> CONDEMNED". So suppose Allek has a house and it goes into comdemned status. The sign would change to "ALLEK CONDEMNED" Friends or associates of Allek can hunt him down and get him to tend to his own structure.
With the extended decay which exists now a very clear and visible sign that the structure is comdemned a week prior to its final destruction (% would be keyed on this) people who are at risk of loosing their house will have a much greater chance of intervening before it goes IF they are active enough to either see it or get a message from a friend or associate.
Players who have millions saved in the banks could choose to pay one month out of six, for a day or two, and never worry about losing their stuff either by their house being destroyed or by the proposed Character Purge. Thus preventing any redesign from happening or preventing a new resident from joining.
A better solution, as others have suggested, would be to have the stuff from a 0 maintence house put into a temporary storage bin. One that cannot be added to, has a limited time limit on it, and goes away if and when the player comes back and sets up a new house. That way, the only thing lost is the structure itself.
That lets people keep their stuff after months of being inactive while allowing inactive structures to disappear so the mayor can strive to keep the city active.