Politician Archive
Thread: focused discussion for 1/19 changes (I'm only reading this thread!)
Kenbow2
Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:17 pm
#118
PROS AND CONS OF ZERO SKILLPOINTS
I have been Mayor inmy city on Kauri since its creation. It is very rewarding to see my city grow and flourish to what it is today. I would like to express my views on several previous posts...
Yes, I had to make a second account mule to run my city because the skillpoints was killing me. I am Master Commando/TKM with some smuggler skills (FD & terminal slice). Thus, i had no free skill points near the end of my template for polititian. This is when I created my mule mayor on a second account. The funny thing is, everyone knows that the mule is really me (from my main). I am voted in every election because of my RL personality and kindness toward everyone in the city and my new ideas and problem solving to make the city a better place to live. It doesn't really matter if I am on my main or my mule in the big picture. So why not just let my MAIN have the politian skills for 0 skillpoints and then I would be the TRUE mayor of my city. And, I could also go out and battle with my fellow citizens.
I look at it like this... A Mayor is a representation of the people. A city that is mostly healers and dancers should have a Master Doc/Master CM as Mayor if that person wants to run for mayor. Or a city that is all mostly combat professions should have the most respected player (stacker) run for mayor if he wants too. What about the triple profession crafter who wants to run for mayor because everyone knows and likes him/her? In other words, the current politian skill points only prevents a potential mayor from beingthe fully developed combat or crafter profession they want to be also.
To me, a good mayor is more a RealLife skill then a game skill. If i am master politian, players dont like me more because of a +10 friendly effect modifier I have. Combat and crafters are different. I could be fat and sluggish in real life, but my TKA will still mitigate and dodge damage just as effectively. But for a mayor, it is different. The real skill is in the person, not the skill boxes. As said on previous posts, once your city is up and running you only need 0120 politian, if that.
Now on to the fears of 0 skill points. Some worry of a "hostile take over" from anyone who can now go out and get the profession. I am not worried about this, and let me tell you why. I have 60+ citizens in my city. So lets say someone presently in my city decides to run against me... no big threat there. So he/she registers to run then casts his 1 vote. Big whoop! Me and my alt can make that 2 to 1 votes in a minute. Ok, so he has some friends that vote for him... assuming I am doing such a bad job that these people would vote for him anyways. So now he has like 6 votes. I have at least a week to get more than that, and any decent mayor will have loyal citizens that will blow the other guys votes out the water.
SO what if someone new comes in and takes over? Well, first he has to become a citizen. Any mayors running their city without zoning rights on is just asking for trouble. IMO, no responsible mayor would ever allow a city to run without zoning enforced. And if a brand new citizen can run against me and get enough votes to beat me, then shame on me.
Since I am on my main 90% of the time, and my alt 10% on the time, my citizens are really voting for the type of person I (my main) am, and they know me mostly through my main char. But yet they are voting for a mule mayor that represents me. IMO, just eliminate the middle man, and letthe citizens just vote for my MAIN character. I agreewith becoming politians with zero skillpoints.
And what if you lose somehow anyways? Well if the new mayor does a crappy job for the next 3 weeks, then run against him againand this time beat him.
Last, there was a previous post that went something like this... "Its not fair that I put all this work into my city and then someone can come along and takemy cityover." Keyword being "my" city. Its not your city, and its not other the mayor's city. IT IS THE PEOPLE'S CITY. This is the life of politics.Mayors speaking of a city as their our personal city talk like dictators. Yes, I understand one's attachment to a city, as i myself am very attached to mine. ButI feel that i do such a good job as mayor, that 0 skill points would not be an issue. And yes, I know I used the verbage "my city" in the top of my post, but I am referring to it as "my city" because I am a citizen there, not because I am the mayor there.
If anything, a mayor's race should be about the most qualified and most poular/likable canidate. There should be run-offs between players back and forth all the time. With more qualified people able to become politians with 0 skill points, it will only make beingpart of the political system, well... more political... like it should be.
Please feel free to comment on any of my above remarks and thank you for listening.
/gets off soapbox
Cigaran
Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:59 pm
#119
Now, how would this differ from what I'd have to do now? Oh, I know. I'd not have to drop Architect to be able to take Politician. The point you where trying to make was?
Moonkat wrote:
For those of you arguing against 0 skill point cost,try this experiment. Pick your mayor character & play Only that character for one week.Do not play any of your other characters on that or any server or any other account. Be Only your mayor for a week, and nothing else.
- Make sure before you start that all your structures & vendors from any other characters will be covered for the time you will not be logging onto them.
Check.
- Tell your friends & guildmates what you are doing so they know not to expect anything from you other than what you are going to be able to do on this character for the entire week.
Check.
- Write down the day you start and when you will stop.
From my first day in office continuing for 3 straight months.
- Note how much time you play each time you log on.
About 4 to 8 hours at a time.
- Make a note of it any time you use a skill you receive from your politician skill boxes & which skill box it was.
Umm, started as a Novice so I didn't have much but in my first 3 months, I revamped out Merchant area, placed may gardens, statues, lights and trainers. I also adjusted the tax rates and garage taxes.
- Run for mayor & try to get as many votes as you can.
Was elected by a majority of the city. Until I mastered, I got an average of 20 e-mails per week letting me know I was being voted for.
Message Edited by Moonkat on 01-21-2005 08:21 PM
Moonkat
Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:18 pm
#120
Cigaran wrote:
It's not necessary to be nasty. I don't even know if you are one of the people against the 0 skill points or what. The point I had was i making people more conscious of how much they actually use a skill box from mayor now.
furrycat
Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:35 am
#121
So our melee defence stax0r 14-year-old punk kid griefing hostile takeover monkey is going to do all this:
Buy a house.
Contact city militia and convince them he is a worthwhile citizen.
Obtain zoning rights.
Place his house.
Wait up to three weeks to ascertain when the election cycles.
Wait up to another two weeks to register his candidacy at the last minute.
Contact all the citizens and wax discursive about how he will make a great mayor.
But all that effort is a mere trifle compared to the Herculean effort that is to:
Drop Novice Medic.
Train Novice Politician.
I repeat what I said before. Fifteen skillpoints is not a barrier to entry. When you are looking at 58 points or 77 points they become quite the hindrance.
Buy a house.
Contact city militia and convince them he is a worthwhile citizen.
Obtain zoning rights.
Place his house.
Wait up to three weeks to ascertain when the election cycles.
Wait up to another two weeks to register his candidacy at the last minute.
Contact all the citizens and wax discursive about how he will make a great mayor.
But all that effort is a mere trifle compared to the Herculean effort that is to:
Drop Novice Medic.
Train Novice Politician.
I repeat what I said before. Fifteen skillpoints is not a barrier to entry. When you are looking at 58 points or 77 points they become quite the hindrance.
TheLemming
Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:56 am
#122
I'll start off by saying that I never intended to be disrespectful. I do use sarcasm as a second language, and it seems some people have a hair trigger, so I'll try to be as direct as possible.
My concern is not that griefers specifically targeting cities will be a problem. My concern is that since politician will be open to all of those that don't have enough interest in it to use skillpoints for it now, it might lead to a large number of people wanting to "try it out for a bit" without much desire to see it through.
What I see happening is that nearly all of the population will go out and get novice politician the day the change hits. That much I know will happen, as AP is very cheap. Then I suspect many will say, "Ya know, I bet I could run a city. It would be cool to be the mayor." This will be driven by both ego (I bet I could do a better job, it can't be that hard) and hunger for power/authority (I could get respect as a mayor, people are always nice to the current mayor when they see him). They'll gather their PvP buddies together and maybe they'll convince them to elect him, maybe not. Once they are elected, however, they'll discover that it is a lot of work, and the former mayor was only respected because of that work he put into the city...but guess what? They're stuck with it for at least 3 weeks. Then, heaven help the city if one of his friends decides that he wants a shot and they elect him instead of the original mayor...or if the active citizens lose patients with the new mayor and he throws a fit deleting the city hall. I've known a few people that I thought to be level headed that get pushed over the edge by someone, and it only takes a moment of anger to do something really stupid that they'll then wish they could take back.
Also note that a number of people might decide that they would make a better mayor for the above reasons. Then you have every man for himself, and in the worst case, the one with the most alts wins. This one could also happen much more readily on a guild level in cities with more than one guild simply because once everyone already has the technical ability to be a politician so readily available to them, the natural thought will be to think "why not?" rather than "is this something important enough to me that I'm willing to drop a few skills?"
I'm not saying that these would be the rule, but I can see it happening in some cases...especially those that recruited fresh from the starport to gain ranks fast without much screening, and those that posted for guilds to join their city for the same reason. I'd rather not have the politician board flooded with the drama that would result, as it's rarely productive and always devisive.
I hear a lot of complaining about the way the system works now, but I don't think it's well founded. After a lot of discussion I decided to take over mayor for my city. The requirement of skill points meant I had to think it over, discuss it to make sure it was the right move, and research it to know what I was doing. I would suggest that this is the way the process should function. I dropped some skills to free up the skillpoints to be a 4144 politician, even if I hear it's not necessary. I also haven't logged in my alt for well over a week since I've no need. I'm still a master WS, I still have 4404 merchant, I still have master artisan. I dropped my combat skills because politician is more important to me right now. Sure I run into a lair that I need cleared to drop some harvesters every now and then and it would be nice to be able to do it myself, but I can call a friend for that. I don't think such an inconvenience is worth the risk that a zero skillpoint solution might raise.
I know this didn't turn out to be a short post, but I'm trying to spell out my concerns here. Just because I don't make them short enough to be a Wheel of Fortune puzzle doesn't make them any less valid, and I hope you respect that. Also, before you write this off and say, "this wouldn't happen, my friends don't act like the citizens you're talking about..." I suggest you glance over a few galaxy forums, the BH forum, the jedi forum, etc. There is a large segment of the SWG community that does not think and act like those on the politician forum. You may also not notice players that would try these things in your city because they're never there. They're either out soloing top level mobs for loot all the time or running with their friends for PvP. They wouldn't really care about politician, but they'd want to try it out since "they've done everything else in the game." And now they could give politician a try since they won't have to have any vested interest. It can be a passing fancy that lasts until they're elected, hang out in town for a day or two, get bored, then go solo elders again. Trust me when I say that you don't want to tempt them to come here.
Edit: If you want a short and concise punchline, here it is: If you keep politician as something that you have to sacrifice a bit for, then you will ensure that only those with enough interest to sacrifice something for it enter the profession. That is working now. You wonder why they want to fix it? The developers have a long history of fixing things that weren't broken until they were broken. Case in point: the second issue on the table, structure maintenance.
My concern is not that griefers specifically targeting cities will be a problem. My concern is that since politician will be open to all of those that don't have enough interest in it to use skillpoints for it now, it might lead to a large number of people wanting to "try it out for a bit" without much desire to see it through.
What I see happening is that nearly all of the population will go out and get novice politician the day the change hits. That much I know will happen, as AP is very cheap. Then I suspect many will say, "Ya know, I bet I could run a city. It would be cool to be the mayor." This will be driven by both ego (I bet I could do a better job, it can't be that hard) and hunger for power/authority (I could get respect as a mayor, people are always nice to the current mayor when they see him). They'll gather their PvP buddies together and maybe they'll convince them to elect him, maybe not. Once they are elected, however, they'll discover that it is a lot of work, and the former mayor was only respected because of that work he put into the city...but guess what? They're stuck with it for at least 3 weeks. Then, heaven help the city if one of his friends decides that he wants a shot and they elect him instead of the original mayor...or if the active citizens lose patients with the new mayor and he throws a fit deleting the city hall. I've known a few people that I thought to be level headed that get pushed over the edge by someone, and it only takes a moment of anger to do something really stupid that they'll then wish they could take back.
Also note that a number of people might decide that they would make a better mayor for the above reasons. Then you have every man for himself, and in the worst case, the one with the most alts wins. This one could also happen much more readily on a guild level in cities with more than one guild simply because once everyone already has the technical ability to be a politician so readily available to them, the natural thought will be to think "why not?" rather than "is this something important enough to me that I'm willing to drop a few skills?"
I'm not saying that these would be the rule, but I can see it happening in some cases...especially those that recruited fresh from the starport to gain ranks fast without much screening, and those that posted for guilds to join their city for the same reason. I'd rather not have the politician board flooded with the drama that would result, as it's rarely productive and always devisive.
I hear a lot of complaining about the way the system works now, but I don't think it's well founded. After a lot of discussion I decided to take over mayor for my city. The requirement of skill points meant I had to think it over, discuss it to make sure it was the right move, and research it to know what I was doing. I would suggest that this is the way the process should function. I dropped some skills to free up the skillpoints to be a 4144 politician, even if I hear it's not necessary. I also haven't logged in my alt for well over a week since I've no need. I'm still a master WS, I still have 4404 merchant, I still have master artisan. I dropped my combat skills because politician is more important to me right now. Sure I run into a lair that I need cleared to drop some harvesters every now and then and it would be nice to be able to do it myself, but I can call a friend for that. I don't think such an inconvenience is worth the risk that a zero skillpoint solution might raise.
I know this didn't turn out to be a short post, but I'm trying to spell out my concerns here. Just because I don't make them short enough to be a Wheel of Fortune puzzle doesn't make them any less valid, and I hope you respect that. Also, before you write this off and say, "this wouldn't happen, my friends don't act like the citizens you're talking about..." I suggest you glance over a few galaxy forums, the BH forum, the jedi forum, etc. There is a large segment of the SWG community that does not think and act like those on the politician forum. You may also not notice players that would try these things in your city because they're never there. They're either out soloing top level mobs for loot all the time or running with their friends for PvP. They wouldn't really care about politician, but they'd want to try it out since "they've done everything else in the game." And now they could give politician a try since they won't have to have any vested interest. It can be a passing fancy that lasts until they're elected, hang out in town for a day or two, get bored, then go solo elders again. Trust me when I say that you don't want to tempt them to come here.
Edit: If you want a short and concise punchline, here it is: If you keep politician as something that you have to sacrifice a bit for, then you will ensure that only those with enough interest to sacrifice something for it enter the profession. That is working now. You wonder why they want to fix it? The developers have a long history of fixing things that weren't broken until they were broken. Case in point: the second issue on the table, structure maintenance.
Message Edited by TheLemming on 01-23-2005 03:03 AM
DND_Cas
Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:33 am
#123
Hvzeda wrote:
furrycat wrote:
The bottom line, this DOES NOTHING for player cities. NOT ONE DAMN THING! This is nothing but a quick and easy nerf in an attempt to appease mayors while not addressing the true issues that we as mayors face daily - something that makes our profession a worthwhile investment. Zero skill points just makes this profession more of a second thought profession that isn't worth much attention.
Valid point.
The question you have to ask is - what could make politician worth the skill points invested in it?
Bear in mind that the developers, by making the 0 skillpoints decision in the first place, do not think the current skills that politician have are worth investing skill points in. So therefore it follows that any type of skill that only furthers the current skillset they will also deam unworthy of skillpoints allocation.
So, in short, to make the arguement you are making politians need to ask to become much more than simply city administrators.
yoda101705
Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:37 am
#124
Being a mayor is a full-time job in this game. Anyone who doesn't think so either isn't a mayor or doesn't take their mayor duties seriously. Those of you who are truly dedicated to being a mayor know what I mean. Hours upon hours can be spent as a mayor before the city hall is even placed. Between devising a city layout that suits you and finding those first 10 citizens, you are talking quite a few hours right off the bat. After you place the city hall you have to deal with things like crappy terrain, city expansion, dead housing, etc. Believe me, being mayor eats up more of your time than you think. But, I enjoy it.
I have a full crafting template and I have been forced to start sacrificing some of my crafting skills to make room for the Politician skills I want. But you know what, being mayor is much more fun. If it wasn't for the fact that I need some form of income, I would drop my crafting professions completely. By dropping the skill point requirement to 0, you are leaving the door wide open for people who just want to be mayor because they think "it would be cool". I'll be honest, being a mayor is cool, but it does take work and dedication.
I have a feeling that the combination of the 0 skill point requirements and the maintenance changes you will see the death of some really great cities and the birth of many crappy cities. Why do I say crappy cities??? Well, with credits flowing like water for many people and a 0 skill point requirement for politician, it is really easy for someone to go out and buy that city hall and start their own city because they think "it is cool". Only to find three weeks down the road that it is harder than it looks and actually takes work. By that point you have a mayor who doesn't want to be mayor (but he/she doesn't care because mayor doesn't suck up any skill points), you probably have a city that isn't very organized (any mayor doing it because it is "just cool", probably never thought out a city layout), and you probably have some real stagnant housing problems.
And if any of these "just think it's cool" mayors ever gets their city to rank 2, then we are really screwed. Why??? Because by then, the mayors canlevy taxes. And in combination with the maintenance changes, you'd never have to worry about the city treasury being empty, especially if the citizens of the city are from the wealthier side of the game.
Well, there are my thoughts on the skillpoint changes.
Ackehece
Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:33 am
#125
Well I like the idea of reduced skill points it does create a future quandry. If they ever do add an ability to Politician or allow for mayors to run for planetary govenor would you be willing to commit skillpoints again if you had it at zero? What I mean is if the devs find that zero is to few they may have to jack the skillpoint cost at sometime. It is easier to reduce cost then it is to increase. 77 was probably to much but zero is way to few. If we ever want abilities that are active or to have the cityban to be effective etc it needs to cost points. I would think that that idea presented earlier which costs 32 points is a good compromise. It leaves 218 points - more then enough to double combat master or some such thing. basically if it is a zero point ability it will only ever be worth zero points.
I think mayors are important to the game and it should have a cost. The people who think mayor should have no cost are not valuing their position at all.
and btw: the zero skillpoints in space does not apply here. In space you can only have one profession - you cannot go up 1 line of this and 2 lines of that. It is just x or y or z not x and y and z. The one space profession it is x and y and z is shipwright and that takes points.
Proximatiberius
Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:15 am
#126
I only read about half of the posts on the first page, overall though I think I see people who are for the zero skill point mayor thing. I haven't been a mayor myself, but I would like to point out a few things:
- Zero skill points is awesome. Crippling characters in the name of a city sucks. It's another SOE ploy to get another $15 a month
- On the other hand - Would the zero skill point cost enable absolutely anyone to be a mayor? Sure you have planetary city caps, but if politician is zero skillpoints, people are going to create a city only for themselves and they're little dog. Not to mention town halls make great storages. I think this will cripple the ability for servers to produce cities which are actually worthwhile. Even with the skillpoint costs, 75% of the cities on Kettemoor server don't yet have a shuttleport. Rori is at it's planetary cap for cities - and none of those cities have over 30 citizens.
My two cents.
VRVader
Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:28 am
#127
I came in here today planning on posting how I did not feel that the 0 skillpoint change would hurt that much but I have to say after reading the last fewof posts I am not that sure anymore.
I have been the mayor of our city for less than a year but have been involved with the city since they were added. I am the 3rd mayor of our city as the first two mayors moved on to pursue other ventures. I have really enjoyed being mayor but up until recently always kept politician on an alt character. All this meant isI did all of my mayor duties with my main (called him deputy mayor) and only logged the alt in whenI had to use the politician skills. I moved politician to my main so that I could get the politician profession badge and had planned on moving it back to my alt as soon as I mastered.
With the 0 skillpoint announcement I was excited that I could continue my service to the city on my main character as opposed to an alt and am looking forward to that. A member of my city/guild even posted on our city/guild message boards about the change and the fact that I could remain mayor. For me this was exciting.
Due to how we built our city I am not too worried about the negative aspects that have been raised here for our situation. We grow small, don't recruitjust to beef up numbers, have zoning on, etc and I do not think the change will hurt our city. But I can see where the concern is and feel for those that may be caused grief by the change.
For personal reasons I would still support the change but would not be overly upset if it didn't as sometimes the greater good is more important than personal gain. For our situation it just means that the alt would become the official mayor again.
Thank you for taking the time to listen to my situation and how it would affect our town and guild. We are happy about it and looking forward to it.
KFGRazzer
Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:34 pm
#128
I was very happy when i saw the initial posting regarding the zero skills points, since it would mean i didnt have to drop TKM so i could take up the armor profession so i could support my city and fellow wookiees. (mayor is my main and only char)
however a few a minuts, my mind was divided, while it sounds great and all - i started to hink, did they do it so they wouldnt have to hear us moaning about lack of content - or was it just a temp. "gift" - or yet agin, is it a part of a greather scheme.
My Militia chef and I was talking about the city and all the other day, he said if the patch comes throu as its written, he would take up politician, incase i would go AFK for sometime, for a reason or another to aid the city and to lessen my burden incase i would leave the game or whatever the thing would be.
am myself Master merchan, master TKA, surveying 2, politician 4433, no skill points left, am running a rank 3 city with 42 citizens - i even run 4 stores, 1 is my own, the others are citizens and the city crafting house.
is zero skills points a good idear - if its a part of a greater plan to add more content to mayors/players citys, then i would say yes - if its just becours they have no idear what ells to give us, then its a rotten idear.
People are afraide of "burnt ground" take overs, but why would this be more troublesome then what we have now, yes every "leet d00d" can run for office now, will he/she get elected? - it's up to the citizens of your town to elect a person, more competition, more time by campaigning and more focus on who's the right man/women for our city. if they elect the wrong person they will feel it, and very fast i would presume aswell, but it would be a hard lesson to learn and certeainly not one they would do agin.
my .2credit (yep infaltion has been dropping)
Cigaran
Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:59 pm
#129
Moonkat wrote:
Cigaran wrote:
It's not necessary to be nasty. I don't even know if you are one of the people against the 0 skill points or what. The point I had was i making people more conscious of how much they actually use a skill box from mayor now.
Sorry, my bad. This all has pretty much has gotten me really worked up. I'm all for the 0 point idea and don't see where all the "sky is falling" fears are comming from. I will give you the fact that we don't use our skill much once we've used them once.
Again, sorry for firing off at ya like that. Been a couple of rough days for any Mayor.
Imcus
Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:10 pm
#130
I posted this in a seperate thread, but I want everyone to consider this...
While I personally like the idea of politicians not having to use any skill points (I have been a mayor for a year and having the skill points will allow me to do even more in the game) I have one idea that should be attatched to this 'fix'.
I believe that a mayor should no longer have the option to destroy a city hall. The devs have stated time and again that the city belongs to the people and not the mayor, so any mayor who can destroy a city hall has to much power. A city hall should only be destroyed when the city does not have the money or residents to support it. Some simple coding could remove this option from the city terminal.
The reason that I am suggesting this is because I received an e-mail from a friend (who is not even a resident of my city) who has heard of a group of people on my server who have the intention of joining cities and attempting to get a candidate elected so that they can destroy the city hopefully opening up a slot on an already capped planet. If a 'terrorist' was to bomb a city hall in a real world city the city would still exist even though the building was destroyed. I feel this should be the same in the game.
I am not (very) concerned about this happening in my city, I have a strict militia and even if someone was to gain residency I do not think that an unqualified candidate would be elected. Still, the ability to grief a city through it's destruction could be devistating toa groupthat is not thinking along these lines.
I urge everyone to think about this as an option and hopefully our correspondent can even suggest this to the devs.