Politician Archive
Thread: Devs Why would you do this?
"The /citywarn command first and foremost violates one of the single most important aspects of SWG. A neutral player has by choice decided they wish to have nothing to do with PvP. As the very foundation of this game revolves around voluntary PvP, the use of a command to remove that choice from a player is inexcusable."
One problem with your reasoning: anyone who can't move 450min two minutes isn't trying. And that's the furthest anyone has to go in order to leave a city. Don't want to PvP? Then when a PC town's militia /citywarns you, leave. It's that simple.
Getting spawned on top of by a red mob can force you into nonconsensual combat --- it's happened to me plenty of times, and I've been killed that way on more than one occasion. Whoops! Dire Cats! Runrunrun! Oh no! *chomp* I die! Well, that's part of the game, and you don't see me in here demanding that the Devs rig the game so red mobs can never spawn on top of me, do you?
Hero_DarkJedi wrote:
Greets ...
You know ... whining and saying you want it back isn't helping a darned thing.
They know you want it back ...
The problem is the very real "exploit" that was being used.
Come up with inovative solutions might just help the situation.
If you just want to be an *ostrich* and stick your head in the sand and say you want it back ... they are going to ignore you.
I am sure they are discussing what they can do ... to bad you guys aren't doing the same thing ... coming up with ideas and what *would* work .. instead of moaning and complaining like 12 year old kids ... (oops, sorry, some of you are 12 year old kids)
We have been, on several other threads. Diabling the /warn command within a certain radius of POI's is the going solution between players right now, followed secondly by forced removal from what should have been no build zones to begin with. Third would be increasing the /warn timer so that anyone could cross a town if just running through.
~~Shabhaii, Mayor of Tombra, Naboo
www.cityoftombra.com
The REAL BT
"The FS system only rewards the Veruca Salt's of the MMO world . . . not the Charlie's"
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The reason why it is being removed, as stated by Plinka in another thread, is that people are dropping their city halls at POIs, and then using /citywarn to kill anyone else coming into that POI.
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This is so easily fixed, it's not funny. JUST MAKE ALL POI'S NO BUILD ZONES PEOPLE!!! Put a nice large perimeter of a NO BUILD ZONE AROUND THE POI!!!
If you take /citywarn from us, you are taking control of the city from us, and putting it in the hands of greifers and opposition armies!!!
We were lead to believe these cities were OURS!!!
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Come on people, chant with me
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I have to respond to this:
This is where the root of the disagreement is. Under no circumstances should I be trying to avoid conflict with another player. It is not my responsibility to avoid conflict, I am given that right, privilige, and ability to avoid any and all PvP by being neutral. Another player, as I stated above, should have no ability to decide what I can and cannot do, other than to prevent me from using facilities they own. You can inflict no harm upon my avatar without my express consent and desire for you to do so.
This kind of entitled thinking is problematic on SO many levels. You see, the difficulty with making the claim that you have the RIGHT to go anywhere you want without consequence is that by doing so you are infringing on the rights of others and mandating that we have a game with no consequences for actions. If I am having a presentation in my cities down town, and you decide to start a striptease in the middle of the proceedings, I have EVERY right to forcibly remove you from the proceedings. If you start dragging Kimos in the middle of my city, I have EVERY right to forcibly stop you. If you are a human, and my city is a transhodan bounty hunter complex with issues with humans, again, I have the right to remove you.
Now I have no doubt in my mind that you will respond with something like "but its not your city." When I say "my" I refer to my community's city. It takes a player community a LOT of effort to build a city. To remove all ability to self-regulate so that you can do whatever you want whenever you want is unthinkable.
You claim that, as a neutral, no one has the right to force combat on you, and yet the GAME does this all the time. ALL of us at one time or another have been wandering along only to have a pack of maulers or a kimo spawn on top of us. Have we been "griefed". No, we simply made a choice to be somewhere with potential danger. Player cities are no different.
Ok, so the problem is that we have city's camping POI's Right. Here's a possible solution. We have these event coordinators running around making little events right. Well, simply determine the general faction of the town that's a problem and if they are rebel, have a coordinator send all the citizens an email saying that the empire has decided to remove their town as it is in the way of a larger Imperial operation. They have X days to vacate the premises. Then swoop in with a ton of stormtroopers and at-st and such and blast the town to the stone age. Then make it impossible for a city hall to be dropped within XXXX meters of the POI problem solved. If its rebel do the same but come in with reb commandos and such.
Sure it sucks for the town in question, but hey, war is hell.
Problem solved, militia can stay and we have some drama on our servers.
Heck, we can even take picnic baskets out and watch the fireworks.
Jaye.
PS BTW, My town is close to a POI, the Skywalker Ranch on TAT, we placed the city hall as so the max radius would not interfere with the POI. Some decided that they would take the POI they were near. Well they made a decision knowing that was what they were doing. They knew it wasn't exactly Kosher. Oh well.
Sometimes we have to make hard decisions. That goes for Devs too.
In response to Niska (too long to quote so I won't):
First, we were expressly told by the Developers for two years that yes, in fact, Player Run Cities were designed to allow players to control a small area of the game world, adding content through their own visions of what their towns would be like. Dangerous criminal enclaves, pirate camps, and contested factional areas where no one was trusted were examples given at various times. The ability to keep players out who did not meet your conditions, in essence to create your own little faction of sorts in your own little area, was the highlight of the entire player city design.
Second, you are confusing the dangers of PvE and PvP: in both instances, YOU are the one at fault for choosing to participate. And by entering a player controlled town, you are actively making the choice to possibly participate in PvP. Just as you would not make the choice to go to the Warren if you could not handle it, you would not make the choice to enter a Player Run City if you did not know what you were in for. If you felt you needed to go through there to reach an objective, you're more than welcome to; after all, you have a minimum of two minutes before you can be attacked, more if you're not noticed right away. If you choose not to leave in those two minutes, you are actively choosing to participate in PvP, period.
And folks, remember: cities who warn people just for entering are rare. People who warn people for not being of a certain faction are more common, but didn't we want more GCW anyways? And even then, the two combined make up approximately 1/3 of all PRC's from what I've seen. That leaves an enormous number of PRC's that people who want no PvP can enter, and as long as they are polite, stay in with impunity. You learn. You get to know your territory. You remember where is safe, and where is not, and you pick your battles.
~~Shabhaii, Mayor of Tombra, Naboo
www.cityoftombra.com
The REAL BT
"The FS system only rewards the Veruca Salt's of the MMO world . . . not the Charlie's"
Well. I guess if we are going to lose the militia, someone had best start an "exterior" design skill branch. If we can't control our cities, perhaps we can make them pretty for the griefers.
While we are at it, let's make the decorations destructible - you know, kinda like creature lairs (of course we shouldn't be able to defend them like creatures defend their lairs because that would require a militia). With destructible city structures, the mayors will have hours of fun re-building what is destroyed. And thinkof the money sink! C'mon folks, let's make this constructive! The Dev's need ideas!
The question here is “Whose rights are inviolate?” Are they the rights of the pro-PvP ‘anarchists’(1) who believe that people shall police themselves and that it is through the threat of social outcasting and avatar based violence that order will be maintained? Or, are they the rights of the non-PvP ‘carebears’ who believe in an overall law that is universal and enforced only by the system i.e. the developers and the CSRs?
Clearly, I fall into one camp and many others, mainly the politicians and militia members who oppose the removal of the /citywarn command, are in the other camp.
If I am having a presentation in my cities down town, and you decide to start a striptease in the middle of the proceedings, I have EVERY right to forcibly remove you from the proceedings.
No, in my opinion, and apparently the developers, you have the right to /addignore. If everyone present ignores the individual in question you can carry on with your business and there is nothing more that needs to be done.
If you start dragging Kimos in the middle of my city, I have EVERY right to forcibly stop you.
No, but this time you have an actual recourse and that is to contact a CSR to report a direct violation of the following Rule of Conduct;
6. You may not intentionally circumvent the player-versus-player combat features and cause another player to die, such as by "training" them.
Training is defined as pulling/leading a hostile NPC or creature along behind you and attempting to get it to attack another player who does not desire that engagement.
I personally feel that the /citywarn command violates this rule in the effect that it “circumvents the player-versus-player combat features” as the developers intended them to work.
If you are a human, and my city is a transhodan bounty hunter complex with issues with humans, again, I have the right to remove you.
Again, no, I do not believe you do. I feel you have every right to /cityban the race/faction/gender of your choosing from every public and private building, but you should not have the right to prevent the players from occupying a public area with their mere presence. If what they say offends you then you have the ability to /addignore, not to attack the player in question. If this policy seems wrong to you, please note it is partially a result of a desire to not allow players to interfere with one another that object collision was removed from the code.
I do not wish to make this seem like a personal vendetta of mine. I have nothing personally against PvP, I in fact created my bounty hunter on Naritus for the express purpose to engage in occasional PvP once the group TEF/decay issues are resolved. My presentation is based on what I feel to be the overwhelming opinions of many casual gamers who have little to no interest in anything but remote social interaction and PvE entertainment.
Footnote
(1)Anarchy - "a political theory opposed to all forms of government and governmental restraint and advocating voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups in order to satisfy their needs."
Niska -
You are missing the point. We aren't trying to force PvP on anyone. Indeed, the whole purpose of a timer allowing an individual to leave is so thata person choosing not to PvP can make that choice. My city, to the best of my knowledge, has yet to use the /citywarn command. But, if someone comes in, choosing to be a jerk, I want the right to kick them out. The city only exists because I, and my colleagues, have spent a great deal of time, effort and virtual moneycreating it. To have someone come in and mess around with us, simply because being a jerk is their idea of fun, well, that ruins our fun.
Remember, every place outside of a static city is apotentially dangerous area. Player cities are not static cities. They are wilderness just like all other points outside of the static cities. They can be rather calm areas, or they can be a harsh environment. If you intentionally put your character into a harsh environment, harsh consequences may result.If it makes you feel better, consider player cities PvE, with smart E. If you want to completely protect yourself from character harm, the only place to be is a static city - and you had best remain neutral lest one of the "live" events come through and you find yourself targetted by devs playing imps (or rebs).
No one is forcing you to PvP. The choice is yours by entering and not leaving a player city after being warned.
SOE should make PoI's non-build areas, sure. No one should be able to take away PoI's. But that's it.
Niska -
The /ignore command is not a cure-all for anything. It cant:
1. Remove known coverts from an enemy factioned city
2. Remove undesired elements who harrass and grief in MANY ways, not all verbal (yes, you could call a CSR, and get assistance several days after the problem occurred, but all this does is swamp csrs in matters that players could manage themselves).
3. It cant allow players a sense of territorial control and self-government and regulation
4. It cant allow players to create unique in-game content and points of interest
Removing /citywarn eliminates a powerful tool that allows players to create unique communities and to enforce the ideals of these communities. HOW these communities choose to enforce their ideals is equally powerful. Some communities will gain bad reputations as places unsafe for the common traveler, whereas others will be known to be safe havens for all, or safe to specific factions and groups. This increases the diversity of the game as well as political intrique. Without /citywarn cities become homogenous, with no ability to create unique environments and you lose what could be the greatest saving grace of this game to date. You also remove a non-factioned form of PvP from neutral players, some of who might actually desire some non-pve action to liven things up.
I have no doubt there are those like yourself who prefer a world devoid of /citywarn. I also know that I see HUNDREDS of posts against its removal.
Let me try to explain how it is I became involved in this debate, as this may shed a bit of light on the situation at hand. I am not normally a reader of this particular forum. My normal reading habits take me to the Development, Bounty Hunter, Pistoleer and to my galaxy forums (Naritus and Tempest). I have on occasion passed through a few player cities on Tatooine in the Naritus galaxy (I’ve played very little on Tempest since the city patch). Other than checking out what vendors might be around and on one occasion using a mission terminal in a city located between Mos Eisley and Anchorhead, I have had no overwhelming interest in joining or spending much time in a Player City. My wife and I are both quite content living in our home near Mos Entha.
Now, just yesterday I read a thread on the Naritus board started by a neutral player whose main I have a deep respect for on Tempest.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Naritus&message.id=58432
After reading the thread, I understood both side’s positions. The neutral was just attempting to visit a place he’d never been. The PA in question (Mortis Consortium) being avid overt Imperials and PvP participants felt that anyone who was not Imperial had no right to enter their city. The neutral, while loading, was hit with /citywarn. The attacker was out of range up until the very point the neutral was loaded, at which point he attempted to say “hi” was hit, incapped and DBed all for the mere reason he was a blue dot. No real warning. No way to prevent access to the shuttleport for the unwary. Not even a logo to show up on the map that declared the city as Imperial only.
I in no way blame either side for being wrong. Both sides felt that they were acting well within the rules and were expecting different things. The neutral for expecting that neutrality = non-PvP and MC for believing that the developers had given them a tool to properly remove from their city from anyone they wished to exclude.
I am truly sorry that you feel that just because you do not use your powers to do this that other people should be allowed to. PvP should be consensual. If players are allowed to govern themselves then the developers lose what control they have over player conduct.
As it stand now I am excluded from a great deal of planetary content for the very right you defend. I will not currently endanger my avatar by entering an area I risk being attacked in by another player. Please discontinue the comparison of PvE to PvP. Another player’s avatar is nothing like a NPC MoB. The underlying psychology of the encounter is entirely different. I would of liked to have visited the Emperor’s Retreat and may of in fact used the shuttleport provided by MC. If I had I would have died as the other neutral even though my biography is quite clear on my stance against the Rebellion but I am and will remain a blue dot for as long as the current GCW system is in place (group TEF/decay). Now I must wait until a tool used to inflict grief by a select few is removed from all because I have no idea who can be trusted not to load kill me because I logged out in their city’s cantina…
So you agree then, the real issue is load killing, not /citywarn? Because the timer does allow you to get out of town on its own. Don't get rid of warning because of load times, get them to make you immune to action commands (/attack, /citywarn) until you are actually able to control your avatar. And also, keep in mind that a lot of people are coming to realize that PRC's are NOT public areas any more. They are not yours by right, they are for public use if the citizenry agrees to allow them to use them. Face it . . . if they get no say in protecting their turf, they'll just get rid if the things and everyone will be back to public shuttleports anyways. Our town already decided not to have a cloning faciltiy because we can no longer stop people from dropping in and making jerks of themselves . . . why would we want to PAY for them to do so?
~~Shabhaii, Mayor of Tombra, Naboo
www.cityoftombra.com
The REAL BT
"The FS system only rewards the Veruca Salt's of the MMO world . . . not the Charlie's"