Politician Archive
Thread: focused discussion for 1/19 changes (I'm only reading this thread!)
Pappi
Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:43 pm
#27
LordBluefire wrote:Pappi, I normally post in green as it is my favorite color, but for you I will do my summary post in white! /hug
thanks
I use the original (Starwars Galaxies) background, so white is the best color for me to read. I sometimes use pastels to highlight important stuff, but dark colors are hard to read 
Balin76
Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:54 pm
#28
I agree that there needs to be a revamp of the whole enchilada. A reduction is SP is I think, a good thing, however, I'm not sure that dropping to 0 is ideal.
I've heard some interesting rumors about the whole maint thing... (and I know I could probably go digging, and eventually find it, but beyond what Tiggs posted in the Testing threads, where is there any concrete information on this?) I've heard that the structure would be condemned, and never actually poof; I've heard that eventually after being condemned for a while, the house would go "up for sale" and could be bought. I've heard that the house will pull maint directly from the bank, if condemned... Before I can really provide feedback on what I think about this one, I'd like some more info on it.
In BarterTown, most of our merchants operate out of one of two malls, so we don't have near the number of issues with abandoned main street shops that some folks on our server do. But there is an area of town that we are severely hampered in developing because of structures that we absorbed in one of our updates. So I can feel the pain on that.... but where can I find "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" on the implementation on this guy?
I've heard some interesting rumors about the whole maint thing... (and I know I could probably go digging, and eventually find it, but beyond what Tiggs posted in the Testing threads, where is there any concrete information on this?) I've heard that the structure would be condemned, and never actually poof; I've heard that eventually after being condemned for a while, the house would go "up for sale" and could be bought. I've heard that the house will pull maint directly from the bank, if condemned... Before I can really provide feedback on what I think about this one, I'd like some more info on it.
In BarterTown, most of our merchants operate out of one of two malls, so we don't have near the number of issues with abandoned main street shops that some folks on our server do. But there is an area of town that we are severely hampered in developing because of structures that we absorbed in one of our updates. So I can feel the pain on that.... but where can I find "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" on the implementation on this guy?
Cigaran
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:26 pm
#29
First, I've not read throught is so I'm probably just reposting what someone else has said.
That being said, this will really make me reconsider keeping ANY of my7 accounts and EVER playing another SOE game. You ask us to swallow 77 skill points for Master in a profession that gives us jack squat. We get NOTHING at master and have NO control over out city once someone's placed thier home. We have a militia that has NO purpose other and to help others join the city. We have NO ability to even see who the hell owns the houses after thier placed. Once this goes live (which it will) we will have lost out only hope of removing deadbeats.
There is no reason for them to cater to non paying customers. When you cancel, you are only guaranteed 3 months of the character remaining. As soon as someone hits the cancel button, thier stuff should auto store in a special crate for them for ifor when return. After 3 months, BAM you're gone, period. As for JustG mentioning the 'character purge', what is this, the 3rd time this has been mentioned? And we've seen how many? C'mon cut the crap. SOE is so worried that the ones that left won't come back when if they won't have thier stuff waiting. Bid deal. WE are here and we are paying NOW. Why are we being asked to lose the last bit of control over our cities due to NON PAYING customers?
If you still have an active subscription, why is it so hard to keep up on maintenance? Is this the direct result of some child crying about thier stuff going away when they can't understand the concept of responcibility? Is it so hard for people in this day and age to understand the idea that if you don't handle you business, you will have repercussions? Again, c'mon, how hard is this to grasp?
Now, to anyone who's metioned greifing what do you call the ability to just drop a house and screw over a city when you leave? I love my city dealy and on may a day, it's the reason I'm still logging in and playing. We, like most, have a fair number of citizens that for whatever reason have left us. I have no way to know who owns what and how much longer we'll have to look at thier home while thier off doing what not. We only have a certain amount of room. Some of us have taken the time to layout our city so that it doesn't look like the cluttered mess that is seen outside of Coronet or Theed. This will force us to either just start placing houses where ever theres room, lay out be damned or just stop allowing citizens to join. To me, neither is an option.
Pappi, a while back, I PM'ed you about a Politican revamp proposal. Due to rl issues, I've not gotten the time I've wanted to devote to this. As it stands right now, I don't see the point with even proposing it anymore. Clearly, we are not ever ment to have the power to make a good, realistic city at all. For 77 skill points, I ough to get atleast the damn ability to read a sign and know who's screwed us by leaving the house this time.
If this goes live, I honestly will have to take a look at this game over all again. Running my city has been a great experience and one that I'll never forget. As it stands now, we need to get reoganizes. This patch will make that impossible. If it's a 6 month purge cycle, you're looking at almost a year of the timing is right for the player when they leave. This is totally unacceptable and boarders on game breaking.
Please note, if you read this and think it's a rant, please consider I built this city along with the founding mayor and have since taken charge of running it. After investing over a year of my time, I think I'm damn well entitled to be passionate about it.
Edit: OK, read all the posts. If this is headed towards 0 skill points and they need a justification hows this. City Hall = 6 lots. We still have 2 for a small or medium house and the Yacht and a MP ship for JTL. Theres no reason for this to be an issue. We have no real effectiveness out of the lost points. We get no combat skills and no way to earn credits with our investment unless you consider the 50k a week which is the cities, not mine. Pilot takes 0 skill points and you can earn a ton of credits just at tier 1 with all the junk you'll loot. I just honestly think that they have lost an purpose for us or have come to a point where they don't know what to do without letting us actualy effect the game.
Message Edited by Cigaran on 01-20-2005 07:05 PM
Fidgiter
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:34 pm
#30
If you'll pardon a second post I would like to give my view on the structure decay issue.
As someone who has been stupid enough to loose a house full of stuff I can see the value of it. I'm sure they get lots of petitions from stupid people like me every day of the year and I would guess this might be the motivation. As they describe it the plan would cause problems for cities and litter the landscape with crippled structures.
This is my suggestion which I believe would realize the purpose of the change while meeting our concerns.
When a structure reaches 25% the walls have smoke and flames rise from the roof. This way people will know the structure is in trouble (hopefully the owner included) and action can be taken to prevent it from being destroyed. If it drops to 0 *poof*
The condition % should allow a week before final destruction and to prevent people from wanting cool burning houses add the "condemned" feature so they can't the structure until its condition is restored above 25%
Kaessa
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:36 pm
#31
Cigaran wrote:If you still have an active subscription, why is it so hard to keep up on maintenance? Is this the direct result of some child crying about thier stuff going away when they can't understand the concept of responcibility? Is it so hard for people in this day and age to understand the idea that if you don't handle you business, you will have repercussions? Again, c'mon, how hard is this to grasp?
Sometimes responsibility in RL overcomes responsibility in game. If I have an unplanned emergency trip I need to take, is my first thought going to be logging in and checking the maintenance on my houses? No, it's going to be on my RL emergency. I like the idea that something unforseen is not going to cause me to lose stuff in game. It's not always a matter of "responsibility", and I'd imagine a good chunk of CSR time is taken up dealing with stuff like this.
I do think something needs to be done about freeing up the lots, though. There have been some great ideas suggested in this thread, Pappi's being my personal favorite. Remember - this IS still in test.. things can and will change. Threatening to quit doesn't solve anything.
Pappi
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:37 pm
#32
Fidgiter wrote:If you'll pardon a second post I would like to give my view on the structure decay issue.
constructive discussions (in multiple posts) are always welcomed, just don't post the same thing twice
Moonkat
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:38 pm
#33
I want politician to cost 0 skill points. Please, please make this happen.
1. Anyone that is an active mayor can easily keep their position if that is the will of the people in their town. We had it easy for a long time in gaining xp by doing nothing - the least you can do is go register to run so that your citizens can vote for you & actively campaign/work to get people to come in and vote. If someone runs against you, they are going to need to have more votes than you. If they are hostile, that isn't likely to happen unless for some reason you haven't turned on zoning and a bunch of their friends pop down houses. You have to be a citizen to vote. It's a bad idea to not implementzoning & is part of being a smart mayor. You have the ability for a reason - protecting yourself and your citizens that rely on you to keep things running smoothly and maintaining the aesthetic of the city layout. You should have zoning on anyway. With no skill points, you'll be able to train that box for managing militia like you never could afford to do before.
2. No skill point cost could relieve the burden of being "stuck" with mayor for many people. There are a lot of people that could be great city leaders who do not do it because they don't want to give up the skills that make them actively able to enjoy the game in order to take up politician. If it costs no skill points, city leadership could easily take turns being mayor if they desire, though with no skill point burden the issue of being "stuck" with mayor is mostly resolved.
3. I do not believe that having the profession cost 0 skill points will render it obsolete in terms of getting more love from the devs. The fact of the matter is that there are a Lot of things more important to the gamethanoverhaulinga professionwhose own members can't agree on what they want it to be in the long run. If things such as the combat update, GCW revamp, making smugglers into smugglers, improving performance and eliminating bugs are not addressed, we will continue to have fewer and fewer people to be citizens. Look around you - player cities are hurting. It's not because our profession isn't what some of us want it to be. It's because the people who are our citizens can't do basic things that were promised to be a functional part of the game from the beginning and have canceled their accounts. It does not cost any skill points to run a guild - it should not cost us any skill points to run a city.
4. It has always been and always will be that the strength of a player city comes from what you and your citizens put into it. The core of an MMO is the interrelating of the players, and no matter what bells and whistles the politician profession has that isn't what makes a player city great. With no skill points, you can train the entire line of city customizationand place those exotic and large gardens you've always dreamed of having.
Politicians are not power gamers, we're in it to provide content and enjoyment to other players. No skill points for politician gives us the ability to have fully developed characters with theskills wewantthat allow us to enjoy the full scope of the game as we desire.
(I just wish this had come out a little sooner, I gave upmaster and all but 0014within the last 2 weeks to work on doctor 
)
)Message Edited by Moonkat on 01-20-2005 07:46 PM
ACiDAnArChY
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:45 pm
#34
Politicians are not power gamers, we're in it to provide content and enjoyment to other players. No skill points for politician gives us the ability to have fully developed characters with theskills wewantthat allow us to enjoy the full scope of the game as we desire.
EXCELLENT POINT!
/agree x 10
Cigaran
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:01 pm
#35
Kaessa wrote:
Cigaran wrote:
If you still have an active subscription, why is it so hard to keep up on maintenance? Is this the direct result of some child crying about thier stuff going away when they can't understand the concept of responcibility? Is it so hard for people in this day and age to understand the idea that if you don't handle you business, you will have repercussions? Again, c'mon, how hard is this to grasp?
Sometimes responsibility in RL overcomes responsibility in game. If I have an unplanned emergency trip I need to take, is my first thought going to be logging in and checking the maintenance on my houses? No, it's going to be on my RL emergency. I like the idea that something unforseen is not going to cause me to lose stuff in game. It's not always a matter of "responsibility", and I'd imagine a good chunk of CSR time is taken up dealing with stuff like this.
I do think something needs to be done about freeing up the lots, though. There have been some great ideas suggested in this thread, Pappi's being my personal favorite. Remember - this IS still in test.. things can and will change. Threatening to quit doesn't solve anything.
Threating to quit is not what the point was here. I've been with this profession for almost a year. If you dicount Smugglers, this is the most neglected profession we have ingame. We got a few minor items added in for us here and there but Play Cites are riddled with bugs that could be listed for hours on end from all of the Politicians.
As for RL, I understand this totally and would do the same. My point is this: How hard is it to pay up maintenance for 30 days? Honestly you can get the credits required in 1 buff session at Ft. Tusken alone off the credits that you loot from them. This does come down to just not paying attention and just crying about the lost stuff in hopes that someone will just come along and say, "There, there. We won't make you worry about it anymore , OK?" C'mon, that's a joke and we all know it.
Moonkat
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:11 pm
#36
I'm going to be optimistic and say they intended it as a gesture to people in the Services. 
Duragoth
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:30 pm
#37
First thing first:
I like the idea of 0-skill points being used up on Politician, but;
1)will the exp needed to advance be elevated so that it takes more practical experience to advance?
2)will it be like the pilot profession were you raise in ranking tier by teir?
Next and last item:
Will there ever be an Elite Profession added to the Politician tree. Say something like "Planetary Advocate" were the players could place Starports, military garisons, form trade routes, and even the possiblity of running for office in the NPC cities. (I know the NPC city thing is streching it, but it would be cool)
Message Edited by Duragoth on 01-21-2005 12:34 AM
Khristen
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:33 pm
#38
Since I haven't heard anything to explain why the skill point change was brought in and the information on the maintenance change is a bit limited, I'm going off of pure speculation on my part. Not really the best foundation to form ideas on, but that's about all we have.
As far as the 0 skill point change:
Fidgiter stated it on the first page pretty much the way I see it. I can see both the good and the bad of this. I have never liked the idea of it being dropped to zero skill points, something I've been fairly vocal about today. I've always felt that restructured skill trees with a reduction of skill points was the way to go. If Politicians are ever going to have abilities worth having, I don't think it would happen if it was a "free" class. I still think that eliminating the skill points rather than taking the time to give Politicians skills they would want to spend skill points on is a cop out on the devs part. It's much easier to give up on it than put the time and effort into making it useful.
If this goes through, I truly feel that Politicians will never become what they could easily become with a little development. If there is no skill point cost, there will be no need to ever put more attention into it. We will not get something for nothing out of this. I have seen many, many good and constructive ideas on these forums that could revamp the Politician profession into something you would *want* to put skill points into. That takes time and effort on the devs part, though. By waving the skill point requirement, Politician needs become secondary to other classes who actually have to devote their limited skill points into their class. It may give Politicians the freedom to pursue other professions, but it also removes any chance of Politicians becoming more than what they currently are.
I'm tired at this point, so I hope that all makes some kind of sense! LOL
As far as the maintenance change:
I'll be honest and say it's not a huge issue for me. I'm not plagued by abandoned houses limiting my city's advancement. Many cities are, though, and they need to be given the tools to deal with that. Combined with the no skill point thing, I don't see that happening. The grief potential will keep the developers from giving too much power to the players in this regard.
So the only option is to wait for houses to decay and hopethey keep their promise on regular purges (and not waiting six months to implement it). Not very promising. I'm not sure of what else can be done, though. If there are enough conditions put into the condemning process, Politicians waiting for house decay may not be hurt too badly.
There still needs to be notification of the process. If a building becomes condemned in a player city, the mayor needs to be notified. There also needs to be a time limit on how long a building can stay condemned. The current system takes a little under two weeks once a house reaches zero maintenance (I've only had experience with this once, so that may be off). That is ample time for someone to take care of the situation. It should not extend indefinitely. After that two week time, the structure poofs. I also feel that a condemned building should only be repairable by the building owner, and not just someone on the admin list.
If notificiation e-mails actually work (which they don't now), two weeks is more than enough time to take care of accidental decay. If it's not accidental, there's no reason for the structure to remain. If the player's not active, they're just taking up space.
Sorry if those thoughts aren't incredibly coherent. There have been several posts in here that have said it much better than I have. Most of my concerns have already been expressed by those more eloquent than me.
I would like to hear a bit of explanation from the devs on why they chose the zero skill point thing (when it's been discussed here before and pretty much shot down). I understand the reasoning behind the maintenance thing is to cut down on CSR tickets and potentially to work around the maintenance bug. If we don't know the reasonings, we can't really offer constructive alternatives. It's hard to give an answer when you don't know the entire question.
Jutewr
Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:41 pm
#39
I think that the zero skill points thing is a great idea. More people will be able to keep other professions they enjoy and also be able to become a mayor. I've always thought that it was unfair that I would have to spend skill points to become the mayor of my town, while guild leaders don't have to spend any at all.