CUEmu - Thread Posts

Eclipse_Rahvun

Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:02 pm

Greetings everyone, Rahvun here...

As a Leader Of GTA (the only guild in the city of Caserta, naboo), I have firsthand knowledge of what transpired. The CSR stepped in and replaced "Geglash" as mayor not because he was simply acting up and making the citizens upset. Geglash sold his character on ebay, trying to get more money out of the transaction by throwing in the 'have you ever wanted to run a city? have you ever wanted to run your own guild?'.(look on the old ebay pages for "eclipse mayor")

Obviously when we(the entire active city and guild) found out we immediately started sending in csr tickets to prevent this from happening. If you read your terms and condiitons its against SOE policy to sell your account. When geglash found out that we knew he was selling his account and that we were sending csr tickets, he immediately logged on and pleaded with us to let him sell his account. Obviously we let him know this wasnt going to happen (and took tons of screen shots and /reports). We have dozens and dozens of players who have worked very hard to make our city a beautiful city that people want to visit. It wasnt untilafter logging on and learning that we werent going to help him sell his account, that he started removing all the leaders from the guild and taking away all the militia status, etc from everyone to prevent us from taking the city by force and physically making his sale go through.

Geglash/Valkyria/Nilak no longer exist for a reason.

If you have any questions or comments your welcome to send me a tell or mail in game. ill happily try to explain further questions.

Thanks,

Rahvun

Rahvun Colbeysson - Master Swordsman/Master Doc
(unlocked force slot May 24th on 31st profession, commando)

Vendors in the player city of Caserta, Naboo at -1638, 6650

Caserta Mineral Company

jjmartin

Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:14 pm

#15

I have to agree with everyone. That is what elections are for. If you do not like what is going on then the city will either fall or you will vote the mayor out of the office. I do agree that the mayor needs to be booted from the game for greifing the other players but the CSR should not just jump into office. That is why we vote for people. The game gives the mayor too much power. If we are to protect the cities from junk like this then the mayor should not have the power to disband a city by themselves.

Jerdeta Douglas(Master Architect/ Master Droid Engineer)/ Novisio Hope (MBH/ Master Smuggler)
Mayor of New Lymbo (Chilastra)
House Lymbo Reborn (HLR)

Day 1 vet.

Ritorix

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:11 am

#16

It is no longer a private, guild matter when the entire planet is affected.

There should be a price for electing a bad mayor. That price is built into the game - decay of the city. The city decay system needs to be allowed to work.

-Ritorix, Techno City, Eclipse

Tharro

Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:49 am

#17

When I read the first post i have to admit i found the CSR was in fault, but after reading every post in this thread (the reason why). I understand why he did this. But I think they have to learn of this situation so it can't happen again. You said the griefing started after you discovered that he wanted to sell his account.

He took away all guild leaders: this one is a tricky one to solve, but you need to have 5 members to keep a guild up and running right? So perhaps to make it so to take away someones permissions you need at least 3 people that vote for this and agree (this way he couldn't get enough people to remove the other guildleaders)

This is the same withbeing mayor: as soon as there is running an election the mayor can't remove militia or blow up the city hall. Even let say he can't change the tax rates of the city as long the elections run. But with this points alone you can exploit it so the mayor can't change the taxes, just run against him everytime. To solve this there should be something like you run against the current mayor and get involved in the elections. If the current mayor or anyone of the canditates that lose can't run for the next 2-3 elections. Also change the time for elections, now you just can head in a city hall and put you on the list to run for mayor. This can perhaps be made so that you have aa few days each weekfor elections let say 1 day for signing up 3 days for voting, the rest of the 3 days the mayor is save.

And maybe the system to disband the city hall should go like the folowing: the mayor choose to disband the city, all citizens get a mail with his intentions. The get 1 week to respond to this mail, the respond can be nothing, the city hall disbands. Or someone can go to the cityhall and sign up for a new mayor, the city hall remains. This way the resigning for mayor is also being made posible, and it is the city that dicides that a city keep standing or not. And I would say bad luck for the cities without a mayor, but they get blown up.

This is my opinion on this matter, for the rest I would say hope this sort intervention of the CSR putting himself in office isn't needed anymore.

Don't let hatred fill your mind,
Ydyp Ieva.

Master Squad Leader/Rifleman/Creature Handler (going Squad Leader/Ranger, yep I like to be a sucky char just wait for the combat balance

)

Korrack

Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:50 am

#18

After reading posts by those directly involved with the city, I find myself standing by my original opinion of the CSR interference was warranted. It's obvious the CSR took control of the city to prevent the player being removed (I assume the incumbent mayor was banned for trying to sell his account and hence the city) from doing anything in any fashion to destroy the city.

Regretfully, the player city code does not protect against outside game influences and players wanting to grief others. A mayor trying to sell his account and the city is against the TOS, just as trying to sell a Jedi is. People do wig out and change from what you originally knew of them.

Aside from people playing in guilds or cities who have met in real life, how much do you truly know of anyone in your city? I was mayor of Vicimus Naboo Wanderhome from day 1 up until the first week of February. I stepped down as mayor because I was tired of the run around and adminstration required to run a city of 100+ people and be an officer in my guild as well. I wanted to play, I wanted to enjoy the game, and I am enjoying it more now than I did the first time I logged in. But the citizens of Vicimus and those in VVV don't know me from Jack. They only know what I tell them. I could be an axe murderer for all they know, and for all you know.

There should never be opportunity in this game for any single player to grief a larger group of players and to destroy anything that has taken months to build up. Imagine how you would feel if the DEVS made errors in their logic and code (as they have done with politician, it was never expected a politician would want to quit or grief someone) and made it so when you die, your corpse is looted by the killer and that everyone is open to player killing. How many people would still play? How many would cry bloody murder and want their stuff back? What you need to do is think in terms of those with the city.

If you were in their shoes, would it still be wrong? If you say yes, then you are lying to yourself and to this forum.

Message Edited by Korrack on 03-18-2004 09:52 AM

OKIEKORRACKOKIEKORRACK
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Karquile

Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:31 am

#19

No.

There are two misconceptions here.

Misconception #1: PA's and Cities are interchangeable. The Player Association is obviously a natural organizing group for starting a City, and many (certainly not all) Cities are associated with PA's, but they are separate game mechanisms. There is no PA functionality on the City Hall Terminal, and no City functionality on the PA Hall Terminal. There is effectively no limit on how many PA's can be formed, where their PA halls can be located, or where their members can live. Cities are a limited resource, with critical restrictions on how many a Planet can have and where they can go. Cities don't have members, they have citizens, who must live within a short radius and pay taxes, but otherwise there is no formal game mechanism for enforcing anything else on them. A Planet full of City-ready players should not be held hostage to Player Association soap operas.

Misconception #2: There's misbehavior and then there's misbehavior. People act as if they're entitled to some kind of get-out-of-jail-free ticket when the sleazeball they repeatedly elected finally shows his true colors and trashes the city, gets banned from the game, or worse. This is why it's important to pick a good Mayor -- and to change your Mayor if you have any doubts. The voting power is in your hands - and so is the responsibility for the survival of your city. If you make the mistake of treating Politician as an afterthought profession and Mayor as an afterthought job, sooner or later it's going to bite you in the keister.

I know nothing about the people of this particular city, so I'm not blindedby personal feelings. The citizens of this or any city should not make the mistake of treating their city as a birthright they're entitled to despite weeks or months of lazy inattentive "voting" for an incumbent they don't know they can trust. The CSR was dead wrong to go along with that mistake in this case -- CSR wrong? so what else is new.

Be careful whom you elect. If you have any doubts, get a better person now.

Scoooter

Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:46 am

#20

I am sorry the CSR accted appropriatly based on the posts of the people there.

Since Sony was revoking the account of a grieving mayor that was going to be removed from the game by SOE because of EULA violations (selling his account) a CSR needed to take the bold steps and act so the gaming experience of an enture city was not effected.

The election system does not easily allow for mayoral replacement since all non voted default to the incumbant, many have had that issue.

But when SOE has to take steps to ban someone because of them selling their account they cannot let the gaming experience of everone else be worstened.

This seems not to be the case that he was being banned for exploiting. He violated a legal agreement with SOE.

My hat is off to the CSR that had the guts to intervine

Scoooter - Master Pilot/Master Politician
ScootBacca - Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman
Co-Leader - mVa
Mayor of Mos Vegas, Tatooine, Valcyn

BruSwillis

Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:57 am

#21

I really do not understand this at all.

If you have a problem with your Mayor you get someone to stand against him and vote the new guy in. If in the mean time, the outgoing Mayor then starts destroying the city, then a CSR has full rights to step in. If the residents of the city had time to find out about the sale of the players accounts and submit numerous tickets and screenshots, why then did they not have time to oppose the Mayor the way the game/profession was meant.

I read all about political intreague and that there would be hard fought elections. This is a prime case of something the Devs intended but it not being carried through.

And to all those who then come in and complain that with AFK residents, or what ever, that the incumbant Mayor is hard to vote out, well, as stated in the original posters views, that is the residents problem and a reason for it to fall below city level 4 and lose the shuttle.

Dont forget here, these people are fighting for the level 4 city and finally having a shuttleport, not to see a City completely destroyed. Caserta would still be standing, just no longer at level 4 and would lose it's shuttle, no one is implying it should be killed alltogether.

For a CSR to save this City from losing level 4 status was wrong in my view.

_____BruMasterUnderworldSmuggler.
___________Toth'raRebelBothanSpy.

DingoBoi

Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:08 am

#22

Nobody is saying the city should have fallen. We are saying it should have been allowed to fall without intervention by CSR's.

We are all happy for you that things worked out okay for you. What we are not happy about is how the situation was handled.

Geglash was rightfully banned from the game for violating the TOS with selling his account. Everyone is in agreement.

Geglash had no power to put anything in jeopardy after that occurred.

So, we are left with a situation where you have high taxes and little/no militia.

Why did a CSR need to step in? From this point on it should have been left to the city to install a new mayor by voting him in. If you had ghost homes and would have had difficulty doing this that is, frankly, your problem.

But the CSR stepped in and made himself mayor. He changed the taxes and changed votes. NONE of that should have happened. CSR's involvement should have ended after the banning of Geglash's account and the city left to pick up the pieces and get things changed by voting in a new mayor.

That is our issue and what we disagree with. You ELECTED him to be mayor. Now deal with the consequences of your choices.

Some people apparantly feel that I've been flaming caserta with my original message as evidenced by some tells i received last night. I spoke with Bayle and while we disagreed, at least it was civil and then episte who i can only say is a dolt who could only cast insults and offer no rational discussion. You will be city banned in Xanadu. Xanadu Bay offered to Hiam any assistance we could provide when we first learned of geglash's actions. Nobody is saying the city should have fallen, but it should have been allowed to without CSR intervention if that was what was to be.

~ EPC SHIPYARDS ~

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Premium Ships & Components Featuring 5 Master Shipwrights * Powering the Eclipse Galaxy

u A R B O R E A L H O R I Z O N S u L A R G E S T S H I P Y A R D S I N T HE G A L A X Y u Naboo -6500 3300u

u M E G A C O R P u P O W E R u Talus -546 -2767u

Abido

Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:26 am

#23

1- Why didn't you just vote him out by the next election? Its a simple question, really.......one that I see is PAINFULLY ABSENT IN YOUR RESPONSES.

2- If you had an issue with outvoting him, then please explain to all of us why Caserta couldn't outvote their dead sections of town to oust this Mayor. If you realize that you couldn't, then Caserta deserved to fall (from Level 4 Not die in some smoldering ruin as some of you are hinting we wanted).

and Last but NOT Least......

3- How can a Politician be considered a griefer when they are elected?Any Citycan simply vote in a new Mayorby the next election, problem solved. The bad Mayor's actions are the result of the City's choice, shown to be a mere temporary problem since the term only lasts 7 days.

At no point do I see any of Caserta's residents being prevented from using an IN GAME mechanicto oust this Mayor. Cities can have bad Mayors. PAs can fall and rebuild. In no way do I see this as any different. Either you could outvote him (and you used the ingame system to fix your issue) or you use a CSR to help you since your inactive populace outnumbers your active (which still doesn't warrant the City to be saved, just the PA).

I now remind all of you the List of Cities I placed on page 1 of this thread. How can you possibly argue on the merits of your hard work, when each and every one of those cities put just as much work, if not more, into their City as you have. That is, if you still feel Caserta "deserved" to be saved. Many of those Cities have existed far longer than, as you say, "patch" day. When it comes to City work, my friends, you're really screaming in a deaf ear when it comes to me.

In my view, Bot Homes was a way to prevent the big Cities from falling from Level 4 (a means not originally intended). CSRs saving Cities from bad Mayors is a new form of (not originally intended) preventing Level 4 Cities from falling. All one needs to do is cry "Griefing Mayor threatens town." Bad Mayors needs to be a valid reason why Cities fall, and this, once again, circumvents the rules we have all played by. Being in a situation where you can't outvote your Dead Populace needs to be a reason your City can fall from Level 4. Keep in mind, ALL Cities that fall claim "Hard Work" and "So much put into Town." A City cannot claim that as a reason to be saved.

-- To anyone recommending System Changes or that things need to change with the current Player City system:

I feel you are missing a major point of this thread. We have a system, and it was circumvented. There is nothing stopping a future system that you support from being circumvented in this manner, thus, the reason for my post.

-- To anyone that doesn't agree with me:

Thank you for posting. Your thoughts are very valuable here, and this is indeed a hot topic. This isn't an issue that needs to be handled in the Shadows, or with Candor. Hopefully you can understand why.

End of Line...

Message Edited by Abido on 03-18-2004 10:30 AM

Abido Spin- Colonel
Eclipse Politician/Pistoleer- Techno Union
Winner of the "Grumpy Award" 2003
Grand Moff of Techno City 6300 -3600 Naboo.
For screenies of Techno City and the The Seven Wonders of Abido

PosiTec

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:04 pm

#24

I was a Mayor myself from the first day of cities, and juststepped down a week ago.

To all those saying that the game has a mechanic built in to handle problem Mayors let me offer a few points...

1) I WANTED to step down, and had the cooperation of all the guilds in the city (Asylum, a GREAT City)... and it still took a month to get it done... it isnt as easy as it sounds to change mayors. I contend that the larger (and possibly more active) a city is, the HARDER it becomes to change Mayor. Take a look at "Isle of Misfits" for example... took weeks to change Mayor.

2) A bad mayor can DESTROY a city in aprox 5 seconds if he wants to,or he can wreak alot of damage in a short period of time... yet it takes a minimum of 7 days to replace a Mayor, and he has complete visibility that you are trying to do it.

3) I believe that if a Mayors character is destroyed, then so are his buildings. The city hall is owned by the Mayor. If SOE destroyed the Mayor character without first transfering the office to someone else (the CSR), then they would have destroyed the city. The poststates that the CSR is a tempoary Mayor until an election cycle can complete.

I certainly sympathise with the cities on Naboo that can't grow because of caps... i have always said that the caps are stupid.. and certainly the cap on city sizes does nothing beneficial. But I think it's very petty of anyone to WISH destruction on someone else, just so thay can have what they want.

A Mayor that is just apathetic, not very good at his job, or just a total idiot should indeed cause a city to suffer. It is the ability of an intentionally bad Mayor to "Grief" the citizens that is the problem.

Had this particular Mayor just been doing a piss poor job, Im sure the citizen's would have eventualy voted him out, or they would have moved away (thus causing the city to shrink). However, this was a Mayor actively trying to screw over the player base in his city because they wouldn't cooperate with him breaking the TOS. The soluton wasn't pretty.. probably wasn't anything the citizens wanted to see happen... but was probably the only way out of a horrible situation with no straight forward game mechanic to solve it.

Several people have pointed out that City and Guild should not be considered the same. I agree.. and since that is the case, anyone (or any guild) in a city that can't grow because of the caps should consider consolidating with one thats already large enough (probably what SOE are trying to encourage anyway). Have your guilds look for a City that isn't "Guild Run". Join that city, and ADD to it by making it an even better city than it already was. Only one person can be Mayor, and he might not be in your guild or group of friends.. but you can ALL build a good city.

Scoooter

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:16 pm

#25

You all have seemed to missed the point of Bayle an Rahvun.

This is not the case of a griefing mayor.

This is a case of a mayor violating the SOE EULA and getting kicked out of the game.

Not for griefing but selling his account. An out of game action that caused that account to be terminated.

In that case SOE/CSR needs to step in. They should ensure that the existing players have a lessened gaming experience when they have to ban an anncount to an action done out of game.

The mayor sold his account in violayion of the EULA, and being a mayor they felt it necessary to intervene rather than penalize 80-90 gamers and lessen their experience because a user violated the EULA outside of game context forcing cancellation of the account.

This is what CSR's are for, they acted correctly.

Now we have had a mayor that when she found out sh was going to be replaced she destroyed the city hall, is that right. Welll that was in game and nothing they can do.

But this was a case where SOE was taking action because of illegal out of game activity. SOE has a responsibility to protect the other customers it has when SOE is forced to take actions that will lessen the expierence of others and those gamers affected cannot take care of the issue themselves.

As stated from the above mentioned people, the mayors account was being cancelled by SOE for those reasons which is a good exception.

They did the right thing by taking over the city and giving the residents a single, very fast opportunity to get a mayor in place.

They should not lose their cap spot and rebuild because SOE needed to take action to protect their intellectual rights. In that case SOE needs to ensure that by protecting their rights they do not induce a negative gaming experience.

And yes the city residents take precedence in this case. Although some would argue "my gaming experience is lessened because I could not grow ot level 4 because of this". Well not it is not because you werent there in the first place.

I play on a completely different server, so this does not affect me really. But with what they outlined as the TRUE reason for the CSR taking over are valid.

Scoooter - Master Pilot/Master Politician
ScootBacca - Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman
Co-Leader - mVa
Mayor of Mos Vegas, Tatooine, Valcyn

Joeust

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:25 pm

#26

Holy Trollers. This is another case of people opening their mouth before they know what they're talking about, I'm saddened to see one of our long time neighbor cities talk this way about our city.

My name is Bayle Dashiva, and as a quick overview, before all this went down, Rahvun, Valkyria, Geglash and I were the 4 leaders of GTA and helped run the city, Caserta. Geglash and his girlfriend, Valkyria sold their characters on Ebay and once they found out they were reported for violations of the terms of service, thats when they began "griefing" the citizens.

I understand your wish to have a bigger city but your statement that Caserta should fall so that you can prosper? I think not.. The actions of few arent going to kill a city and that's by design. Even if the CSRs wouldnt have stepped in, Caserta would have done just fine. We started electing a mayor prior to any action by the CSRs and nothing would have prevented that. I'm sorry you wish ruination upon us but it wasnt going to happen either way.. Taxes have a limit for a reason, he couldnt have broke us and I have enough money to sustain our entire guild from high taxes for a good long time if need be, and would have.

A CSR stepped in because of violations of the terms of service laid out by Sony. If you disagree with this, I'm sorry. I worked with Geglash the day of the patch to lay our City Hall and I wasnt about to let it fall no matter what.. If you're going to be angry at someone here, be angry with me.

Long live Caserta.

Lorelei Dashiva - Future Master Shipwright, Galactic Trade Alliance
Vendors in the player city of Caserta, Naboo at -1635, 6685

Caserta Mineral Company

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