Politician Archive
Thread: Advice on running against an incumbent
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Kinshi
Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:11 pm
#1
Ok heres my dilema
I live in a GREAT town thats been around since players could make cities. Its big, metropolis ranked, 2 guilds live there and most folks are pretty active.
The current mayor has been there since the beginning, and there really nothing wrong with the way he has handled the town, but I feel the town has gotten to the size where I think it needs more organized leadership (he favors a more fluid, laid back style of governing, where I prefer a more structured, council style of government.)
The prime difficulty comes in convining voters to vote for me when things currently dont feel 'wrong' to them. The main obstacle I face is that folks are not discontent at all with things currently but I feel the town has hit a plateau, a place where we have stopped growing, and that we need to revitalize the town and get it growing again. (I come up against the 'if its not broken, dont fix it' mentality and thats a hard one to budge.) I have been talking to prominent players in town trying to get a feel of what they think issues are but not much has made for a compelling campaign platform thus far, and its damn hard to sell ideas on principle alone.
The current mayor and I have butted heads Politician style already (tho I hold him in high regard, and honestly thing hes done a helluva a job), but I think its time to let the guard change and get some new ideas and ways of doing things take hold. He thinks everything is fine, no change is necessary.
Also, I havent been in town since the beginning, ive been in town only a year, so there is no physical way I can have more 'experience' in running the town than him.
I ama novice politician, hesd a master. I am currently grinding Politician with the help of friends in a small outpost I setup so I can be a more useful mayor in terms of in game ability in case I do get elected.
Advice on how to defeat a popular incumbent would be most welcome, and avoid getting labeled as some noob, jonny-come lately mayor wanna-be.
I live in a GREAT town thats been around since players could make cities. Its big, metropolis ranked, 2 guilds live there and most folks are pretty active.
The current mayor has been there since the beginning, and there really nothing wrong with the way he has handled the town, but I feel the town has gotten to the size where I think it needs more organized leadership (he favors a more fluid, laid back style of governing, where I prefer a more structured, council style of government.)
The prime difficulty comes in convining voters to vote for me when things currently dont feel 'wrong' to them. The main obstacle I face is that folks are not discontent at all with things currently but I feel the town has hit a plateau, a place where we have stopped growing, and that we need to revitalize the town and get it growing again. (I come up against the 'if its not broken, dont fix it' mentality and thats a hard one to budge.) I have been talking to prominent players in town trying to get a feel of what they think issues are but not much has made for a compelling campaign platform thus far, and its damn hard to sell ideas on principle alone.
The current mayor and I have butted heads Politician style already (tho I hold him in high regard, and honestly thing hes done a helluva a job), but I think its time to let the guard change and get some new ideas and ways of doing things take hold. He thinks everything is fine, no change is necessary.
Also, I havent been in town since the beginning, ive been in town only a year, so there is no physical way I can have more 'experience' in running the town than him.
I ama novice politician, hesd a master. I am currently grinding Politician with the help of friends in a small outpost I setup so I can be a more useful mayor in terms of in game ability in case I do get elected.
Advice on how to defeat a popular incumbent would be most welcome, and avoid getting labeled as some noob, jonny-come lately mayor wanna-be.
Vilinius
Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:43 pm
#3
You should see if he welcomes the challenge. And if he does, ask him if you could write up a email to talk about your views. Then ask him to send it out.
Jaspor
Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:47 pm
#4
I think you already figured out your biggest obstacle. And it is that people will go with the whole "We like the status quo, everything is just fine the way things are" mentality.
A couple quick (and possibly disjointed) thoughts....
I think people in charge of towns (not just the Mayor, but citizens who have invested alot of time of effort into the town) are usually very defensive and skeptical of people trying to run for Mayor... The "hostile takeover" fear is still there in the backs of the minds of people who have been involved with Player Cities from the beginning. They seem less of a problem these days, and there have been some good examples in the past of CSRs stepping in to stop griefers trying to destroy the city, but the bottomline is this: people do not want to see the downfall of the City they've come to know and love. Having a new Mayor in office with absolute power (including the power to destroy the whole city with a few simple clicks) is a scary prospect.
Now, on the other hand... What are the chances of actually instituting some of the changes you're interested in without actually taking on the title of Mayor? Obviously, you have some handicaps in terms of not having all the commands and powers and whatnot. But you don't need powers or commands to run events. Or establish a City Council. Or talk to other citizens and find out what THEY want more of. If you canposition yourself as a valuable tool to the Mayor, rather as a competitive threat, you might actually put yourself in a better spot to get things done faster, and maybe actually take over as Mayor if/when the current one decides it's time to step down.
It is much much better to become Mayor with the backing of the previous Mayor than it is to stage a little coup and try and oust them against their will.
Of course, alot of this also depends on the personality of the person you're trying to replace. Maybe they have had enough and are ready for a break. Maybe they welcome a "roleplayed" election, complete with debates and goons bullying people into voting. Or maybe they'll immediately see you as a threat to the future of the city, and go on the defensive.
Tons of possibilities. And tons of ways to make citizens dislike you if you're not careful, heh. 
Traie
Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:16 pm
#5
This is what politician should be about. A city has grown stagnent (sp?) and complacent with their mayor. Than along comes a new politician with new ideas. But how to take over. Can't do it hostile wise.
I'd say get everyone together and have a debate. Thou there's nothing really to debate cause anything you'd do, he could do. Perhaps just talk with the mayor about your ideas. Maybe he'll like them and use them.
Let him know thata council could alieviate some of the responsibilities of his and give him more time to himself.
Jutewr
Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:28 pm
#6
Well, I ran against the mayor of my town for 3 months. I ran into not only the "there's nothing wrong, so why should we change?" attitude, but since the mayor is also our guild leader, many saw my running against him as a betrayal. (Which still causes some friction in my guild) In the end, I made my own city lol. But some things I tried:
Guild Emails (worked because all of the active citizens are also guildies)
Guild Chat Macro (yes, I was evil and everyone hated it, so don't do it rofl)
Debate (we nevedr actually had one, because I set up my own city first, but I think this would have been neat)
Talk to Citizens (I got lots of votes just for the novelty of having someone run against our mayor, although I also lost a lot of votes for the same reason)
I only came close once (vote was 24-21) but I think I would have won if I hadn't had a conflict with a fellow guildie. (He thought I was a horrible, traitorous person for daring to run /sigh)
Good Luck!
Kinshi
Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:29 pm
#7
Well some plusses in my favor are:
I am a current citizen of the town, have been for almost a year, plus I have friends in both guilds that call the town home. I am also a member of one of the towns guilds, and have been a contributing member to the towns well being since I got there (I recently organized a guild war event that was a lot of fun). So I dont *think* i give off the image of some griefer who will trash the town. I have also spent a lot of time talking to other folks in town about the town, as well as attending the city 'hunts when I can.
I am content to see some of my desired changes pushed through even if I dont become mayor. One thing I failed to mention is I am advocating the formation of a 'city council'
City Council idea
There are 2 guilds in my town that make 99.9% of the citizens (bout an even split)
I want a council formed of 3 members of each guild + the mayor. (mayor does not vote save in the event of a 'tie' in the council.
No big changes, like tax increases, changes of specialization, or relocation of major civic buildings, and additon of new militia would have to be approved by the council, not by the mayor alone (the mayor would implement the changes the council approves.
The leaders of both guilds would agree to the formation of the council and to abide by its decisons and consider them binding.
The mayors role would be that of an administrator, not as dictator of the city, as such I am trying to create an environment where only citizens who have already proven their devotion to the town would get votes in an election. Our 2 guilds are very tight, and I think we have a environment where this council idea would work. A new mayor would run for office knowing he has to work with the council , and the only way a new mayor would get elected is to show willingness to maintain the council system.
Point of this is we have a lot of people in town and I want more to come, and with more people comes the need for organization. Taking a laid back approach to administration with large numbers of people is a recipe for discontent.
Currently the town descisions get made in ad-hoc town meetings where the curent mayor and whoever decidee to show up makes decisions about what to do with the town. We get a lot of flip flopping decisons as people who werent at the meeting find out about the decisons and want the reversed, then they get reversed again. Im looking for system that doesnt 'flap' like that.
Again our current mayor is not bad, I just dont think he can grow the town beyond its current level with his current methods, as such I am afraid our town will miss out on the surge of new, game enhancing changes that have come and continue to come.
I am a current citizen of the town, have been for almost a year, plus I have friends in both guilds that call the town home. I am also a member of one of the towns guilds, and have been a contributing member to the towns well being since I got there (I recently organized a guild war event that was a lot of fun). So I dont *think* i give off the image of some griefer who will trash the town. I have also spent a lot of time talking to other folks in town about the town, as well as attending the city 'hunts when I can.
I am content to see some of my desired changes pushed through even if I dont become mayor. One thing I failed to mention is I am advocating the formation of a 'city council'
City Council idea
There are 2 guilds in my town that make 99.9% of the citizens (bout an even split)
I want a council formed of 3 members of each guild + the mayor. (mayor does not vote save in the event of a 'tie' in the council.
No big changes, like tax increases, changes of specialization, or relocation of major civic buildings, and additon of new militia would have to be approved by the council, not by the mayor alone (the mayor would implement the changes the council approves.
The leaders of both guilds would agree to the formation of the council and to abide by its decisons and consider them binding.
The mayors role would be that of an administrator, not as dictator of the city, as such I am trying to create an environment where only citizens who have already proven their devotion to the town would get votes in an election. Our 2 guilds are very tight, and I think we have a environment where this council idea would work. A new mayor would run for office knowing he has to work with the council , and the only way a new mayor would get elected is to show willingness to maintain the council system.
Point of this is we have a lot of people in town and I want more to come, and with more people comes the need for organization. Taking a laid back approach to administration with large numbers of people is a recipe for discontent.
Currently the town descisions get made in ad-hoc town meetings where the curent mayor and whoever decidee to show up makes decisions about what to do with the town. We get a lot of flip flopping decisons as people who werent at the meeting find out about the decisons and want the reversed, then they get reversed again. Im looking for system that doesnt 'flap' like that.
Again our current mayor is not bad, I just dont think he can grow the town beyond its current level with his current methods, as such I am afraid our town will miss out on the surge of new, game enhancing changes that have come and continue to come.
Ka-jun
Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:59 pm
#8
how about you make your own city ? instead of trying to steal what this mayor has spent his time and sweat building.....you have no right to take away what this guy has devoted his game time too...again....go out and start your own city if you think you can do so much better than him.
Kinshi
Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:17 pm
#9
5 dont buy the above argument at all..the city is NOT his personal property. The citzens are the ones who pay for it, and are the ones who supported his grind to become Master Politician.
The 'personal' ownership began and ended on the purchase of the city hall deed, everyone one else in the town has paid for the town 20x over since its inception.
With the above mentality, there might as well not be any politican profession at all, might as well rip out the voting terminals because it would be pointless.
ANy Mayor going in who gets it in his head that the town belongs to him and that it theirs to be stolen, isnt a true civic leader at all, but more like an aspiring tin-pot dictator or a control freak and is underserving to be a Mayor. If you cant handle someone else coming in and playing in your sandbox, you have no business being a Politician. (or you must be an Imperial Player, which of course the Empire is all about control freaks, and stomping out democracy)
I am a citizen of MY town, like any other citizen I pump money into it via my property taxes and sales taxes, like the others I pump money into it via donations. That gives me all the right in the world to run for Mayor, aqnd win.
I love my town, I dont want to start some crudburg somewhere else, and have to dreg up people to live there. This isnt about 'I just wanna be mayor", its about changing the city direction because the Mayor aint the only guy who lives in town. Guess what, you have citizens, as a politician, you better listen to them or find yourself back to shooting womp rats in your spare time.
I certainly hope our Mayor doesnt have ideas in his head like that, because thats the mentality I would expect to find on a grade school playground, not from someone claiming to be a Master Politician and Civic leader.
Let that be a lesson to anyone else runnning a city, its NOT your personal property, sure you may founded the city, but you need other players to populate or its all pointless and guess what, people have their own ideas how to run things, and if you arent willing to listen to them, then you can get shoved out of the way, which is what the city voting system is all about is all about.
If you take up politician and found a city, it means you buy into the election system. It means you can be challenged (and should be challenged). Also founding mayors, dont actually get elected. Nobody chose them in the first place, and historically in SWG nobody challenged them because no one wanted to waste skipp points on Politician. Heck some folks went as far to get 2nd accounts just to run a Mayor.
I am actively seeking to PLAY politician, not run a mayor as a sideline or as a means to an end. If the current mayor decides to to be pissy about having his town 'stolen', well fact is its the voters who did the taking not me. If your citizens decide you suck as a mayor, it doesnt matter how much ownership you think you have and deserve, you will be out on the street and thats the way it should be and thats the way the Politician game is played.
Bottom line it is the Politicians job to administer the city and keep his citizens happy, and the voting system gives him incentive to keep doing just that or get the boot. Face it a MAster Politician got to that level not because he went out and performed Mission XYZ, he has to convince people hes the right one for the job and have votes cast for him. He lives on the city's goodwill, and is a servant of the city, not the other way around.
I also feel strongly about cities funded solely by private donations as those can be prime examples of being someones personal sandbox, and not a city where citizens have a voice. I favor the taxes paying for the city, so that any personal owbership is not held by a few persons and to make sure the town doesnt get held hostage by someone with lots of money and an ego trip.
The 'personal' ownership began and ended on the purchase of the city hall deed, everyone one else in the town has paid for the town 20x over since its inception.
With the above mentality, there might as well not be any politican profession at all, might as well rip out the voting terminals because it would be pointless.
ANy Mayor going in who gets it in his head that the town belongs to him and that it theirs to be stolen, isnt a true civic leader at all, but more like an aspiring tin-pot dictator or a control freak and is underserving to be a Mayor. If you cant handle someone else coming in and playing in your sandbox, you have no business being a Politician. (or you must be an Imperial Player, which of course the Empire is all about control freaks, and stomping out democracy)
I am a citizen of MY town, like any other citizen I pump money into it via my property taxes and sales taxes, like the others I pump money into it via donations. That gives me all the right in the world to run for Mayor, aqnd win.
I love my town, I dont want to start some crudburg somewhere else, and have to dreg up people to live there. This isnt about 'I just wanna be mayor", its about changing the city direction because the Mayor aint the only guy who lives in town. Guess what, you have citizens, as a politician, you better listen to them or find yourself back to shooting womp rats in your spare time.
I certainly hope our Mayor doesnt have ideas in his head like that, because thats the mentality I would expect to find on a grade school playground, not from someone claiming to be a Master Politician and Civic leader.
Let that be a lesson to anyone else runnning a city, its NOT your personal property, sure you may founded the city, but you need other players to populate or its all pointless and guess what, people have their own ideas how to run things, and if you arent willing to listen to them, then you can get shoved out of the way, which is what the city voting system is all about is all about.
If you take up politician and found a city, it means you buy into the election system. It means you can be challenged (and should be challenged). Also founding mayors, dont actually get elected. Nobody chose them in the first place, and historically in SWG nobody challenged them because no one wanted to waste skipp points on Politician. Heck some folks went as far to get 2nd accounts just to run a Mayor.
I am actively seeking to PLAY politician, not run a mayor as a sideline or as a means to an end. If the current mayor decides to to be pissy about having his town 'stolen', well fact is its the voters who did the taking not me. If your citizens decide you suck as a mayor, it doesnt matter how much ownership you think you have and deserve, you will be out on the street and thats the way it should be and thats the way the Politician game is played.
Bottom line it is the Politicians job to administer the city and keep his citizens happy, and the voting system gives him incentive to keep doing just that or get the boot. Face it a MAster Politician got to that level not because he went out and performed Mission XYZ, he has to convince people hes the right one for the job and have votes cast for him. He lives on the city's goodwill, and is a servant of the city, not the other way around.
I also feel strongly about cities funded solely by private donations as those can be prime examples of being someones personal sandbox, and not a city where citizens have a voice. I favor the taxes paying for the city, so that any personal owbership is not held by a few persons and to make sure the town doesnt get held hostage by someone with lots of money and an ego trip.
Kinshi
Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:19 pm
#10
oh and if I didnt make it clear. I call BS..I have all the right in the world to run for mayor in my city. The voters will decide who is the one that gets the job and determine if the current mayor is deserving of the job.
Its what being a Politician is all about.
Its what being a Politician is all about.
Zephisto
Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:45 am
#11
Kinshi,
Have you thought about having a private conversation with said individual and come to an agreement about him allowing you to spend some time as Mayor to try out your policies and ideas. If your ethos is going to be inno way damaging to the current set-up then he should have nothing to worry about. If you and he agree that you can try out a term in office of 9-12 weeks to implement your ideas, then he will be able to email all his citizens and inform them that they will need to vote for you. By keeping it amicable and reinforce that you are wanting to try and increase the success and profitability of the City, but aren't indulging in a hostile takeover, then he should be happy to let you try if he's reasonable 
awentwor
Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:25 am
#12
To give you some advice on the *council* idea... forget it. It doesn't work. You will never be able to get everyone on at the same time... everyone is going to have a different idea on what to do... etc. Tried it.. doesn't work. Best case is to have your *council* bring you the thoughts of the people, but the decision has to be yours and the town needs to know that.
If they end up not liking it... they can then vote you out.
SmithingWeapons
Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:03 am
#13
awentwor wrote:To give you some advice on the *council* idea... forget it. It doesn't work. You will never be able to get everyone on at the same time... everyone is going to have a different idea on what to do... etc. Tried it.. doesn't work. Best case is to have your *council* bring you the thoughts of the people, but the decision has to be yours and the town needs to know that.If they end up not liking it... they can then vote you out.
I agree here. in a council you will two different ideas coming up on opposing approaches to something and if your can not do both of them, one side is going to get mad at the other side. This will cause people to start forming cliques that hate eachother and the cliques will eventually tear the city apart. Much better to have a dictator, that way the only person they can get mad at is you and you can smooth things over to make them happy again.
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