Player Associations Archive
Thread: what benefits in a PA? opinions?
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Revmatt
Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:31 pm
#1
After reading through the swg p[age on player associations, I haven't really found that much information as to the benefits of this sort of group.
These are the main points I found:
-a title, the ones above characters heads allowing guild members to recognize each other.
-a guild hall, being a big house.
-occasional "gifts" from on high such as the miraculously usefull "wookie life day" items.
and
-guild chat (which having never been able to use it, I dont know the benefits.
NOW..... I dont mean to be snarky, but other than these points is there any benefit to using the PA groups laid out within the game, over say a more loosly based character driven group that has its roots in chacters just being loyal to each other?
For instance a group of 20 friends within the game willing to work together and help each other out, versus a player association of 20 people; what are the benefits?
Any information on this would be appreciated.
Jascentia
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:55 am
#2
Here are a few of the more subtle benefits of the items you mentioned, and a few you weren't aware of...
- Guildchat is permanent. Private chat channels are not. There is nothing like a constant communication channel that all members automatically get plugged into whenever they log in.
- The flag next to everyone's name doesn't just help you recognize each other, it creates a persona for the organization that iseasilyvisible to everyone else in the galaxy. It allows you to establish a reputation for your group.
- Guild email. This allows members who you give permission to to send an email out to the entire organization just by putting the word "guild" in the To: field.
- The ability to set guild titles. Admittedly these are only viewable when you target someone and type /guildstatus but... members seem to enjoy having them and using them in game.
- Guildwar. This is only typically used by hardcore pvpers but it is currently the only way toconstantly engage incombat between two organizations regardless of faction.
- You can place the guild abbreviation on the entry list of private structures and it will allow everyone in the guild to enter the private building.
Logistics of communication and cooperation are overalleasier if you are an officially designated guild. In addition,in my estimation,we'll see some additionalPA features like the ones that have been suggestedin this forumbefore the Space Expansion.
A Little Bit Of Pain Never Hurt Anyone
AtraJedi
Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:52 am
#4
There are tremendous benefits to joining a guild if the guild leader(s) are active and have a specific objective for the guild membership. Our main objective is to simply enhance somones gaming experience. Here's what I mean by enhancing the gaming experience:
- Group hunts: Ok this is standard but it makes it much easier to find people to group with for hunting. Eventually everyone learns the hunting pattern and they tend to go more smooth than a random group. We have two hunting party types, Casual hunting (just having fun) and hardcore hunting groups for people serious about getting as much xp per hour to advance their level.
- Themed-based groups: Allows you to organize a plan of attack for certain themed-based activities such as the Geo Cave. The Geo Cave is tough and you can't do it alone. Jumping into a random group at the cave entrance doesn't work well becaseu there is no plan. I like the Geo Cave because you really need a plan to get through and people working as a team. I'm really looking forward to the Corvette!
- Duel Contests: We run a duel contest every month or so and it gets members familiar with PvP if they are not an active PvP player. It also allows peoplel to experiement with various PvP templates where they can stop in the middle of a fight and examine their combat log and try new foods or spice. Duel contests are fun when run well. To spice things up we start it off with a fireworks display etc. Members respond to this very well. Of course, offer prizes in terms of good loot and credits.
- Help and assistance: At the core of our guild is to allow people to do what they want and paritcipate in guild events when they want to. So when doing their own thing, we offer assistance and resource sharing and discounting to help people get throught their professions. We have a bunch of containers that everyone has access to that have individual serving of food and drink (brandy, canape etc) that people can pull from if they can't afford to but a crate of it on their own. So far, no one is abusiong this.
- Other events we do as groups include scavenger hunts, imperial scouting assignments, GCW intelligence gathering, other contests for both combat and non-combat professions etc.
Mallstrop
Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:25 am
#5
The main benafit that i see is that it brings together loads of people with differentproffessions. Having guild chat lets you coordinate the proffesions.
Currently I get buffed for free by the guilds doctors. The architect gives me harvesters for free. Creature resources that I need are harvested for me, for free. In return, all I do is use my proffession to help other guild members. I'm not forced to give out my produce, I do it by choice knowing that in returnI will benefit from the people I'm helping.
Halle Oki
PoetDancer
Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:37 am
#6
Still, I do believe that some classes are generally worse for the wear by joining a PA. Specifically, entertainers. I can honestly say that being on the pulse of the entertainer copmmunity like I have been that PAs seldom understand the needs and difficulties of entertainers. Since the sole source of income for an entertainer seems to be in player tips, tags can have a detrimental effect on the ability for an entertainer to make tips. As the above example suggests, PA members may ask for free services as the entertainer's "duty,"even to go so far as to shame the entertainer into "botting out" 24/7 in the guildhall. Hardly what I'd call dignified. If the entertainer refuses? The guild will just buy a bot and cut out the live ones. Moreover, those opposed to the PA may not tip the entertainer out of spite. Even those who are generally neutral toward the PA may say, "She's <XYZ>'s girl, let <XYZ> take care of her." After all, who is really to say if the tip they give will even go to the dancer or musician themselves? What this usually means is that the entertainer who wears tags may have difficulties that a similar entertainer will not. We are in the hospitality business, and it pays to be hospitable to as many patrons as possible in a given venue. Tags mayinterfere with that end.
Jascentia
Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:17 pm
#7
I thinkentertainers are supported or not depending upon the individual policies of the individual guilds.
For examle, in my PA an entertainer will not be seeking funding through tips at all. Yes, we have come to enjoy free entertaiment. However, anything guild crafters can provide is provided freely. Any healing/buffing by doctors is provided freely. While some PA members *do* have a lot ofcredits, instead of buying items from guild membersthey are encouraged to buy Donation Dice off of a special vendor instead. This funding is then distributed to help maintain our city (including that entertainer's home), maintain harvesters that are used to provide free goods to the guild, etc. Anything that can't be purchased or mined is hunted for through group activities.
Everyone has something to offer, everyone has something to gain. It is just a matter of balancing those needs.
PoetDancer
Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:48 pm
#8
Jascenta,
Now from my many months of play as an entertainer, my observations on the mix of PAs and entertainers is that PAs often times treat entertainers as they would any other class, like you said, "Everyone has something to offer, everyone has something to gain." However, please be open to the observations of this entertainer when she tells you that the things PA's offer an entertainer are seldom worth the stigmas an entertainer receives when doing his or her work.
Now throughout my play experience I have tried to keep my pulse as best I can on the needs and motivations of the entertainment community, both on my server and outside it. All I'm trying to do is share with you the same observations I give PA leaders like Padre Book in Intrepid's Serenity guild <snrty>, or Blood in Intrepid's Elite Imperial Syndicate <EIS>, and countless other entertainers who are looking for advice on how to make their play experience more enjoyable. I would appreciate it if you would allow me to voice my same observations to you in this forum, not to condemn the PA system, but so guild leaders and guild members will understand the problems many entertainers face when joining player associations.
Because entertainers are not joining PAs like they used to. Also, established entertainers are leaving the PAs in droves. Moreover, entertainers are entering the PA system for reasons that are demeaning and inconsistant with the notion that the individuals who join these support classes should be treated with respect and dignity. Deny it all you want. Entertainers have been given the short shrift by PAs, and the problems are only getting worse for these classes.
I have compared notes with other guilded entertainers in the public cantinas, and they make less than the unguilded ones. I have seen the posts on my server's board, and the ones with no PA are held in much higer esteem than those with tags. I have talked to the entertainers in PAs, and find that many of them are much less satisfied with their class, and their contribution to it, than most other classes I have talked to. Is it not important then to understand why this is the case instead of trying to bury our heads in the sand and assume that entertainers are better off for being in PAs?
From reading your description of what your PA offers an entertainer, and what an entertainer stands to gain, I honestly can say that this does not give entertainers any more or less incentive to join a PA. This is not to say it is malicious or unconstructive, but merely misinformed. Let me explain why. We do not need harvestors, resources, weapons, residency, or even many clothes. Essentially, nothing that any other class may give us in abundance will make our jobs any easier or harder. What we DO need is a wide range of respectful and open clientele. We need to feel a sense that we are well liked and received for the hard work we do, both inside and outside the PA's city. Otherwise, we are simply birds in an "guilded" cage, and we invariably become treated as such. Understand that I am but one entertainer, but I seem to think that I understand exactly what motivates those who choose and pursue entertainment careers and it is not, I repeat, NOT about handouts. Its about earning our way through the galaxy through the hard work that we do.
What's the problem then? Many PAs do not see our work as "hard." In fact, the baremechanics of our classes, dancing and playing, are so simple that a live player need not do it at all. PAs do not even need someone witty, in-character, and truly entertaining to be around in order to satisfy the requirements of BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs. However, this belies the true work of those that take pride in being the most enjoyable, hospitable, and fun players they can be while doing their cantina work. As most of those who perform these classes with distinction will tell you, however, the real work of the entertainer comes from being as attentive, observant, witty, funny, and engaging as possible WHILE providing these services, and these are things that cannot be duplicated via unattended macro. We like to meet people from other planets. We like to meet players from different PAs. Things that hinder these joys are seen as obnoxious burdens rather than a joy.
PAs, especially the large ones,have difficultyunderstanding this. To them, the only thing an enteratiner has to give them is an exclusive24/7 buff station. While other classes can simply do their PA work when they can and drop it off in the guild hall, entertainers are unique in that they can only do their work while logged in. In fact, if an entertainer is not "on call" to give the PA what it wants, when it wants it, it may be interpreted as an act of disloyalty. This usually leads to systematic unattendance at the keys, further reinforcing the notion that the entertainer's contribution has nothing really much to do with their wittiness and charm, but merely what their skill boxes can do mechanically. Moreover, if the entertainer does take a break to explore some content, they are constantly unable to perform it successfully without having the inevitable "can u buff me?" from a guilder half a galaxy away. While many in charge of a PA will simply see this as the price to pay for the services a PA can provide, the entertainer more often than not sees this as an encumbrence on their enjoyment of the game. After all, entertainers are merely human (or trandoshan, or mon-calamari), and may get pretty bored with being on call in a PA for free whenever they are on. So what better solution for the PA then to take the humanness out of the entertainer and get a dedicated buffbot or two?
I was on Bria's entertainment chat with an entertainment friend who's guild did just that. The guild leader got an account specifically to be a guild's unattended buffer. She felt sad and dismayed at the notion that the PA would approve of something so antithetical to everything that entertainers who enjoy playing the game pride themselves on: earning player tips for the hard work of being attentive and witty. This PA, and I would argue, the lion's share of PA's are going this route: making the goodies of the entertainer available without the need for entertainment or the entertainer behind the character.
And so many of those who enjoy being entertainers are going back to the public cantinas. However, for the reasons I have suggested, entertainers may find that their tags-rightly or wrongly-get in the way of providing the kind of service the developers originally intended entertainers to provide. Our income is totally and utterly dependant on the goodwill of other players. Tags give our patrons the notions that they need not suppliment our income at all when receiving service from us, because they feel that the guild compensates our service sufficiently enough. Moreover, guilds are no longer seeking out live acts, because they can get their entertainment needs satisfied in their guild hall via unattended buffer with names like "ImaBuffU Hardcore" with a description of "master fluffer." Degrading? You bet! Condusive to an entertainer's needs? In no way is it.
So I hope that this gives you at least a better insight as to some of the potential difficulties entertainers have with PAs. Because I give the same talk to other entertainers and guild chiefs. For the most part, my comments were well received, because they are for the most part what is truly happening on the servers.
Panthu
Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:47 pm
#9
I think the game and social benefits to being guilded are really solid! Jascentia listed those already earlier in the thread.
As for the unique perspective of an entertainer, this is going to be based on personal experience. I personally would be lost with out my guild! I would be lonely with out them... and while they do not often tip me like my patrons do, they support me in many other ways. They give me money, resources, tools, weapons, structures, occasionally just large chunks of change for no reason or clothes shopping trips! They also give me a lot of respect on event planning issues and make good usage of my wide knowledge of other PAs and who's who (we ents know everyone on our servers
).
The unique guild problems an entertainer has are shared by all service based professions. Guilded doctors often complain about going broke from giving out "guild freebies", as do smugglers with slicing. The lack of respect PoetDancer is describing towards our profession is a current symptom of some other circumstances in the game. They should not reflect on the PA system itself at all.
Being guilded can be the most rewarding experience in game, no matter your profession or play style. If entertainers find that they are being under-appreciated in a guild, they should move on until they find one that fits them better. There are also entertainer-only guilds, quite a few entertainers find that to be a very rewarding experience. I am my guild's "Star Dancer and Pet"... they fit me perfectly and as I said, I would be so lonely with out them.
As for the unique perspective of an entertainer, this is going to be based on personal experience. I personally would be lost with out my guild! I would be lonely with out them... and while they do not often tip me like my patrons do, they support me in many other ways. They give me money, resources, tools, weapons, structures, occasionally just large chunks of change for no reason or clothes shopping trips! They also give me a lot of respect on event planning issues and make good usage of my wide knowledge of other PAs and who's who (we ents know everyone on our servers
).The unique guild problems an entertainer has are shared by all service based professions. Guilded doctors often complain about going broke from giving out "guild freebies", as do smugglers with slicing. The lack of respect PoetDancer is describing towards our profession is a current symptom of some other circumstances in the game. They should not reflect on the PA system itself at all.
Being guilded can be the most rewarding experience in game, no matter your profession or play style. If entertainers find that they are being under-appreciated in a guild, they should move on until they find one that fits them better. There are also entertainer-only guilds, quite a few entertainers find that to be a very rewarding experience. I am my guild's "Star Dancer and Pet"... they fit me perfectly and as I said, I would be so lonely with out them.
Aynianu
Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:08 pm
#10
Agree with a lot of what you say PoetDancer, however not all PA's are the same, my PA has a few dancers and a lot of ex-dancers and is an all female guild, i do mind buffs for free of course to them, but they dont ask unless they stand infront of me, We are a very social guild, all of us, not just the entertainers (well a lot are ex-entertainer as i said) guildchat is allways lively, everyone respects one another and nothing is ever demanded of one another. I had left an all-entertainer PA before joining them (most had stoped playing, or started holo grinding) and would not have joined another PA most likely for the reasons you have given PoetDancer, yet i found one that was great (were starting our own dance troupe too, with a few non-guild dancers also) 
Breestan
Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:26 pm
#11
I disagree that entertainers are harmed by PAs.
I am obviously in the guild FuBaR on Ahazi. And I don't tend to get tipped by my guildunless there's been a good hunt, and when they do tip it'sleft me speechlessbecause it's like they are trying to make up for the other times. However, they take care of my cantina. If I get my eye on something I want, somehow I get it. They take great care of me, and for the first time since I started playing (first month of release) I have been able to save some money instead of being dirt poor hand having to spend a lot of time running missions.
Actually, I find it helpful to know I have people who can help me out, and people I know will probably be on dathomir kiling things and will let me tag along in the group when I get tired of the cantina. This is helpful because these guys and girls have let me join them on NS hunts. (I did 37 points of damage to the elder too, yay me. Then I distracted her so she'd leave the doctor alone.... luckily he rezzed me hehe) So all I have to do is pick up two missions also, heal their mind in camps and I can have a blast with them and make some money too.
Fubar has NEVER asked me to bot for them. I just placed the cantina and keep the slots, they pay the maintenace. I make it look like I want it to. They can put vendors in it. These guys have been awesome to me. I have no problem doing things on my own, but I always know they are there to help me out and I help them out.
AND... I have danced for rival guilds. ...okay, that sounds bad. But if we are not currently at war, to me, their money is as good as anyone else's, and to Tekoa, faction doesn't matter since she's neutral.
Fubar is Rebel. But I've had overt imperials tip me 20k just because I buffed them. I buffed a group of 5 imperials and they tipped VERY well. Heck, I've even had the rival guild (FedX) tip me stinking well. And what's more, is that most of them were also quite nice. Or at least amusing.
So I do not see my guild tag as being deterimental. I've only been given flack about being Fubar once and it wasn't a big deal.
Personally I see a PA as being a heck of a lot of fun, if it's with the right people.
Drygo
Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:25 pm
#12
I haven't really had any of these problems being a guilded entertainer. I even remember the very first day I joined my first guild, the person who guilded me tipped me 10k credits and specifically said to me not to let everyone else get away with not tipping me. In other words, I knew right then and there that I was of some worth within this guild. Of course, I did get a fully furnished cantina, a house, many buffs, a swoop bike, and various other priviledges since I've been guilded, so I haven't actually taken his advice, lol.A good deal of my guild members do tip me. But, for example, should I be in a group and I mindbuff my entire group before we go out to fight, I don't ask, nor do I expect tips from them. I consider something like that to be a group effort. My buffing helps them keep ME alive longer, lol, among other things. We share the loot, etc. And, then there are times when they just want a buff and I'm getting no benefit from it. Well, even then, I generally will do it, but only if I'm in the area and only if I'm really not doing anything else. I've never felt like I was on call, nor made to feel guilty if I wasn't around. I'll just explain that I'm several planets away and I might get a "darn!" but nobody ever says PLEASE PLEASE COME GIVE ME A MIND BUFF. Or, anything like that. As far as I can tell, so far, nobody has set up a buff bot, thankfully. I might have to reconsider my position if that were to happen. But, should that ever happen, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. And, finally, when I'm in the public cantinas, I don't get any more or less tips than when I wasn't guilded. My tips have pretty much stayed constant. And, if you're not in my guild or not a personal friend, you pay me beforehand, or you don't get a buff. That's just how it is. So, to sum up, I have to say that so far, anyway, being guilded has been better for me in every way than being unguilded. I like to think it'll stay that way.
So, to sum up, I have to say that so far, anyway, being guilded has been better for me in every way than being unguilded. I like to think it'll stay that way.
Drygo
Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:30 pm
#13
**DELETED** Posted in the wrong forum.
Thanks.
Message Edited by Drygo on 04-11-2004 07:33 PM
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