Player Associations Archive

Message Edited by Drygo on 04-11-2004 07:34 PM

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PoetDancer wrote:

Jascenta,

Now from my many months of play as an entertainer, my observations on the mix of PAs and entertainers is that PAs often times treat entertainers as they would any other class, like you said, "Everyone has something to offer, everyone has something to gain." However, please be open to the observations of this entertainer when she tells you that the things PA's offer an entertainer are seldom worth the stigmas an entertainer receives when doing his or her work.

Now throughout my play experience I have tried to keep my pulse as best I can on the needs and motivations of the entertainment community, both on my server and outside it. All I'm trying to do is share with you the same observations I give PA leaders like Padre Book in Intrepid's Serenity guild, or Blood in Intrepid's Elite Imperial Syndicate, and countless other entertainers who are looking for advice on how to make their play experience more enjoyable. I would appreciate it if you would allow me to voice my same observations to you in this forum, not to condemn the PA system, but so guild leaders and guild members will understand the problems many entertainers face when joining player associations.

Because entertainers are not joining PAs like they used to. Also, established entertainers are leaving the PAs in droves. Moreover, entertainers are entering the PA system for reasons that are demeaning and inconsistant with the notion that the individuals who join these support classes should be treated with respect and dignity. Deny it all you want. Entertainers have been given the short shrift by PAs, and the problems are only getting worse for these classes.

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As a master musician and PA leader myself (well, one of me anyway), I won't *allow* buffbots. Sure, we have an entertainer or two that will AFK dance in the cantina all night, but in my experience that's just the slow-grind, not a buff-bot. How do I know? The extremely low amount of traffic that blows through our town in the small hours of the morning.

I've only encountered one person since launch that refused to tip for reasons other than beinga broke newbie, and that was a factional thing. I tried to argue the point that the guy had no idea what my faction was if he'd been RPing, which quickly degenerating into him going on my /denyservice list. Simple as that This game isn't a 'he who has the most toys, wins' thing for me. I'm here to have fun with my friends. Folks that tip outrageously well get on that friend-list. Probably lowers the tip-amount over time, but I don't care, these are the people you want to hang onto because they recognize the service you provide and are willing to pay you what you're worth to them.

My PA isn't huge, not by a long shot. We're up to 65 members last I checked, some of which are dead-wood that haven't been purged. Before hologrinding became the norm, we had about a dozen entertainers of one stripe or another. Now we're down to about half that as people move on to other professions or leave the game entirely. Its distressing, because I had some lofty goal of being a PA where entertainers were WELCOMED with a master musician at the helm. I still think we do well though. Maybe not as great as it could be in a perfect world but I hate to break it to ya... SWG ain't perfect

It sounds to me like you're just not having fun anymore. 'Obligations' weighing you down? Go out on tour! Find, beg, borrow, or steal a small troupe of performers and do a pubcrawl of all the player cantinas on any given planet. Live bodies in a player cantina seems to be sort of a rare thing on Wanderhome lately. I've even found that factions play a surprising role here. The other night, I was honking away on my bandfill in the Theed cantina. My musician's a retired rebel staff sergeant. You can sort of do the math on the factional weirdness in that situation alone. Three of my PA mates were up there with me, only one of whom is an entertainer. ... to make a long story short, we wound up going back to Vicimus' cantina, an imperial town/PA on Wanderhome with their former mayor (Okie, who is now an entertainer), just for kicks. Thankfully, they're not the kind of factional town that mines the hell out of mainstreet. We shuttled in, took up residence on their stage, and had a blast. Unbeknownst to us at the time,Okie said something in guildchat to his folks that there were actual live-bodies in the cantina, half the freaking town turned out to give us ovations. And the tips? I don't even remember, cause I was having that much fun playing to an appreciative live audience focused on me and my friends (as opposed to the types that blow through Coronet specifically looking FOR afk entertainers so they don't have to tip).

The best compliment an entertainer can receive these days, 'Wow, you guys sound/look amazing! Best band I've ever heard!' seems to come from the fact that most non-entertainers don't even know what the in-game music sounds like outside of an NPC cantina setting where the songs being played are geared towards the 'highest common denominator'. Those on the grind, be they noob- or holo-, want the best exp they can get. This usually equates to about starwars2, folk if you're lucky, and it sounds awful with everybody queing up their own flourishes. A cacophony of noise that nobody in their right minds wants to listen to. Would be great if /bandflourish gave everybody experience, instead of just the initiator of the command, but that's another rant for another forum Dancers have it slightly easier, they can do their best dance (exp-wise while stuck in a throng like the Coronet cantina). Getting off-topic here, mybad.

I think what I'm getting at is... you're just not having fun. Do what you LIKE, do it with a group of people you enjoy, do what all determined newbie entertainers have done since day one: take paralope missions to raise cash as needed if the tips aren't keeping pace with expenditures (Raise the stakes as your combatant skills allow, of course) If that's not an option (skillpoints sunk into non-combat skills?), then seriously give some thought to a performing troupe. Find a couple more dancers to practice with. What? Practice? Yeah, clear off the PA hall floor, line up, face the same direction, and do some /bandflo routines as DANCERS. That works too Shame they don't give you a kick-line a la the Rockettes, but you can do similar things with what we've got. Play a couple gigs for free on which ever planet you're currently based to keep travel expenses down, bill yourselves as a performing troupe, 'Need a group to play/dance at your wedding? PA celebration? New Mayor you want to innaugurate? Give us a call! Rates negotiable!', and then wait for the word of mouth to spread. You'll soon have booked weekends, I swear. And the nice thing? You'll be gettingPAID and spreading your PA's name. Might even recruit a couple entertainers along the way, who knows

I think to sum that up... is just that entertainers do just fine in PAs if they have a little support. Support from the entire rest of the PA's great, but that doesn't always happen. I mean support from other PA entertainers you can group with and make some noise, make a name for yourselves, start to make non-buffbot entertaining less of a stressor and more of a fun-factor for you and your guildies. Once you're gone (out on the road), they may sit up and take notice. Then again, they might not. If they don't, find another PA... cause it appears they don't value your contributions if that's the case. The "guild tag stigma" isn't your fault by a longshot. Nor is it that of the 'PA system' in general. Every PA's different as far as its interactions with the general public. There seems to be some bad-blood out there towards yours from what you've said. Work to change it, or get out from under it. Don't let this experience sour you on PA's in general though, there's a niche for every play style and a PA to match

I find the benefits of being in a PA far outweigh any perceived drawbacks. I suspect many of Poetdancer's arguments only apply to entertainers who are SOLELY entertainers, and don't do any other profession, be it healing, combat, merchant, or crafter.

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Lantus wrote:

I think what I'm getting at is... you're just not having fun. Do what you LIKE, do it with a group of people you enjoy, do what all determined newbie entertainers have done since day one: take paralope missions to raise cash as needed if the tips aren't keeping pace with expenditures (Raise the stakes as your combatant skills allow, of course) If that's not an option (skillpoints sunk into non-combat skills?), then seriously give some thought to a performing troupe. Find a couple more dancers to practice with. What? Practice? Yeah, clear off the PA hall floor, line up, face the same direction, and do some /bandflo routines as DANCERS. That works too Shame they don't give you a kick-line a la the Rockettes, but you can do similar things with what we've got. Play a couple gigs for free on which ever planet you're currently based to keep travel expenses down, bill yourselves as a performing troupe, 'Need a group to play/dance at your wedding? PA celebration? New Mayor you want to innaugurate? Give us a call! Rates negotiable!', and then wait for the word of mouth to spread. You'll soon have booked weekends, I swear. And the nice thing? You'll be gettingPAID and spreading your PA's name. Might even recruit a couple entertainers along the way, who knows

I think to sum that up... is just that entertainers do just fine in PAs if they have a little support. Support from the entire rest of the PA's great, but that doesn't always happen. I mean support from other PA entertainers you can group with and make some noise, make a name for yourselves, start to make non-buffbot entertaining less of a stressor and more of a fun-factor for you and your guildies. Once you're gone (out on the road), they may sit up and take notice. Then again, they might not. If they don't, find another PA... cause it appears they don't value your contributions if that's the case. The "guild tag stigma" isn't your fault by a longshot. Nor is it that of the 'PA system' in general. Every PA's different as far as its interactions with the general public. There seems to be some bad-blood out there towards yours from what you've said. Work to change it, or get out from under it. Don't let this experience sour you on PA's in general though, there's a niche for every play style and a PA to match

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Lantus:

I can take hold of my career on my own. I never needed a PA to form the biggest and most well paid touring act on Intrepid, or to get a list of clientele who would jump two shuttles just to have me buff them. And for that matter, I'm having more fun levelling up slowly on Bria than I ever did in my latter days on Intrepid. But enough about me, let's talk about the subject at hand.

Seems to me many of you have PAs that understand the unique motivations and needs of entertainers. However, can you honestly say on your servers that most of the other PAs are as understanding? Speaking from the examples of a few, smaller PAs, I can safely say that there are still many player associations that try to be amicable to the greater server, and take the concerns of the individual players into account. If my statement seemed like a broad brush, please do not think so. Whatdescribed however is a trend to make PAs more efficient and streamlined, sacrificing the peculiarities of the unique needs of enteratiners for the sake of efficiency and advantage. Buffbots, service on demand, and payment in kind are just some of the symptoms of a much larger issue entirely; the trend of moving the PA from a position of interdependence to a position of offering all manner of needs in isolation of the rest of the server community.

In the beginning of the game, player associations were small affairs, usually a small group of crafters or combatants who still needed to interact with the rest of the galaxy in order to achieve some success in the game. Today, many PAs have their own supply chain, healing services, even their own private cities, and can provide pretty much everything they need totally in house. However, since they can provide all the neccessities in house,theydo not interact with anyone on the outside at all. This can be a good thing for combatants, crafters, and other classes that require tangible goods in abundance. However, it can be a chore and a disappointment to those who achieve their greatest satisfaction from interacting with new and different patrons all the time: the entertainment classes.

As a live player working the cantinas today, my client base is shrinking. My best tippers and most respectful patrons are tagless or come from small PAs. The big, 400 member PAs by and large neither tip, nor feel the need to be respectful in the cantinas at all, and my experience has been on two servers now.

Now you are correct, Panthu, that many of the problems associated with entertainers and PAs has to do with the problems entertainers have as a whole. However I would argue that the PA system increases the magnitude of these problems for entertainers. Because for an individual or small PA, a dedicated buffing mule at $49.95 and $15.00 a month can be a rather cumbersome expense. For a PA of 400, however, it becomes a much more tenable option, and it isbecomming a routethat nearly all the large PAs that can afford to do it are going toward. I can remember how difficult it was to get tour dates from my Intrepid experience, and the few cities that did want me on tour with them happened to be the cities that had no buffbots in the private cantinas. This is because large PAs with service on demand and buffbots ingrain a culture of disrespect toward entertainers providing services in locales outside the PA's real estate, because they can get all we have to give them from an automated machine in the guildhall. In essance, a Mega-PAs size and natural advantage over the sigular player or smaller PA means that members can sit inside their player cities recieving all the benefits of community without needing to be hospitable to anything outside it.

Now this new paradigm of self-sufficiency has two effects: It alienates those members of the large PA that formerly shared the burden of providing entertainment services, like the Bria example I gave before about the entertainer who had to accept the automated buffer as a PA member in equal standing. It also takes huge chunks of the player base outside the customer base where entertainers like me are trying to earn a living. Because how am I to combat an individual from a PA of 400 who comes in to my cantina and neither tips me, nor treats me with common decency? If I deny service or walk away, they'll simply get the service from their unattended buffer, and put me on their PA's bad list for not kowtowing to their demands whenever they want it. Moreover, what is to prevent an individual from a large PA from saying or doing anything they want in a public space when they can be put on /addignore by everybody on the server and still achieve great success via their PA of 400? PAs by their size and the vulnerabilities of the entertainment classes have superceded the need to be hospitable for many patrons. Their organizations are so robust as to allow them the freedom to act like jerks to everyone outside of the PA, as long as they are loyal to the PA.

While in a perfect world, players would judge a character on the basis of their effort, it is becomming more and more of a system where players are judged on the basis of their tags. Broad brush? Perhaps. However, as much as we would like to believe that players would always try and play the simulation in as civil a way as possible, the reality is that there are many players that will judge one on criteria that one should not be judged. The problem is not that jerks and closed-minded tag judgers exist more now that before. Its that with PAs, player cities, and the unattended gameplay option of entertainers, jerks and those casting aspersions on an entertainer's tags can do so and get away with it now more than ever before, which only fosters this kind of discriminatory play amongst the players.

While this may not be much of a problem to those classes who do not need social interaction to survive and grow, it can be detrimental to the entertainers on the servers, who need the costant interaction of a large number of players to survive and grow. When I talk about the effects of the PA system on entertainers, I am not talking about how the system should operate in the ideal. I am talking about the root causes and potential ill effects of a system that makes it increasingly less and less satisfying to play an entertainer in a manner consistant with the developer's original intent in a culture on the servers that promotes loyalty to the small community of the PA over openness and amicability to the greater community of the server as a whole. Whereas the entertainer in thePA's community may betaken care offor a while, the entertainer MUST understand and have the potential to make a living in the greater community, for what if the player must leave the PA because of problems or disrespect? We may soon get to the point where the only option for entertainers is to join a large PA, rather than going solo, and though they may be taken care of with free items, they will not receive the kind of financial independence to ever leave if the situation becomes untenable.

Moreover, in an occupation like ours where we owe our financial success and independence soely on other player's goodwill, I try to be as amicable and respectful as possible to as many players as possible. We are not crafters who let the products speak for us. We are tipped and judged on the basis of our personalities and our openness to the patrons we serve. Its kind of hard to do that when somebody whois in my guildjustdeathblowed the patron sitting in my cantina. I like to play in as many places as possible. Its kind of hard to do that successfully when my tags put me in an Imperial guild and I am in a Rebel city. I like to know that if I get tipped or not tipped, its because of the effort I put in to my performance. Its kind of hard to know that if I am not only presenting myself to the patrons, but the history and actions of an entire group of people as evidenced by my tags. I have a hard enough time trying to amuse the patrons to have to worry that my tags may behindering that amusement. As an entertainer, all I have is my reputation, and I will not allow it to be dragged through the mud through the actions of other players beyond my control. Because while we would hope that players would be decent enough to judge us on the basis of our worth, the reality is that there will be people out there that will judge you-rightly or wrongly-on the past actionsof your guild, sometimes for good, if not at least understandable reasons. That is why personally, though joining a PA provides great benefits, I personally do not feel it is in my best interests to join one. It may undermine the good work I do within the cantina on the basis of things I have no control over.

I would have quit playing SWG or at least re-roleda few months ago were it not for the support and appreciation i've recieved from Alliance Squad Echo.They respect my abilities and the sacrifice that I make to be usefull for them (this is not always the case with the general public). They provide me with absolutely anything I could need or want including a sense of belonging.

I don't know about any kind of discrimination based on PA tags but I imagine that it could indeed be a problem. One of the drawbacks to aligning yourself with one group of people is the alienation of opposing groups. I can'tbelieve this problem isclass specific to entertainers.It probably is an issue for merchantsor anyone who would try tosellproducts and services. In my opinion the benefits still far outweigh the drawbacks.

My gametimehas been monumentally enhanced bymyparticipation in this particular Player Association. I know that all PA's were not created equal and mysituation may not accurately reflect the average entertainer's experience. Some interesting issues have been brought to light here and I think it's wise for any entertainer ( or any player for that matter) to consider their playstyle and what they expect to gain as well as what they are willing to sacrifice when looking into guild membership.

A big /HI5 to Alliance Squad Echo

y'all Rock!

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Tragg wrote:
If you get in the right guild you and part of a family

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Don't underestimate the value of this. I'd have lost my interest in SWG a very long time ago without guild chat!

Anthropologically speaking, we arecommunity-driven creatures. Without titles, tags, comm channels, etc.,people will continue toassemble on their own. There are exceptions, but this is the rule.

These assemblies are typically based on commonality. There is usually a purpose, ethic, or philosophy that defines the group. Whether others agree that the purpose, ethic, philisophy etc is reasonable doesn't matter to the group in question. They will congregate and support each other. Regardless of the PA mechanics of a given game, and even in the absence of a structured system, there will be PAs.

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PoetDancer wrote:

Now you are correct, Panthu, that many of the problems associated with entertainers and PAs has to do with the problems entertainers have as a whole. However I would argue that the PA system increases the magnitude of these problems for entertainers. Because for an individual or small PA, a dedicated buffing mule at $49.95 and $15.00 a month can be a rather cumbersome expense. For a PA of 400, however, it becomes a much more tenable option, and it isbecomming a routethat nearly all the large PAs that can afford to do it are going toward.

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Sorry, I missed this bit directed at me... I don't deny that the situations you are describing exist. I have been offered jobs myself from large PAs and also cities. They are willing to pay very well for a "live buff bot", lol. I mean, they want the benefits of a buff bot, but would enjoy having a live dancer instead. Unfortunately for them, there aren't very many Master Dancers that are willing to be in a mostly empty private cantina every gaming moment... no matter how great the pay is. I'm sure not!

I just wouldn't be in a guild that didn't fit me and my playstyle (which happens to be needing a lot of attention from both guildmates and patrons, hehe). I don't think the huge hardcore insensitive guilds you are describing are the norm. I also think they are equally bad about using all professions just for the perks and loading those off on mule account characters. I don't think we are completely unique in this bit of your complaint, nor do I think it is the guild system's fault.

These player groups would most likely be doing this with or with out a PA system. It would be a shame to throw out all of the wonderful aspects of guilds just to try and stop these people from doing what they do. Let's not lose the baby with the bath water.

This thread was about the benefits of being in a PA as an over all. I don't think the original poster made any mention of ever becoming an Entertainer and it wasn't listed in his sig. If you would like to discuss some kind of proposal in the Dancer forum or Entertainer forum, I'm sure Tiaga or I could get together with Jascenta and work something up to take to the devs.

I'm all for educating the non-ents to the unique circumstances and challenges we face both guilded and unguilded as an Ent, but I think we'll get a lot farther working out a plan in our own forum.

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Katannah wrote:

Anthropologically speaking.... (snip)

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Grinding anthropology exp?