Player Associations Archive
Thread: This is all pointless until we get storage sorted.
I have to admit, the correspondencies are a very unpleasant system to work with, but it is also obvious that the developers have not listened to a basic PA issue that has hobbledthe feel of PAs since the beginning.
It's not the horrible interface.
It's not the failure of SWG to have any form of mass communication systems that work.
It's the crime that we call the 250 items for 9 lots issue.
PAs simply cannot decorate their own halls with a 250 item limit. If I want storage right now, I am expected to sprawl a number of houses over the landscape, ruining the views and multiplying my daily maintenance mouseclicks.
PA Halls stripped bare all over are not due to laziness, but due to the fact that you can decorate maybe two rooms well before you run out of item space.
PA Halls should be centers of commerce, centers of social activity. None of this is present if we can't reliably leave items in the hall for others of our group.
I've spilled a lot of electrons on this issue since August, and I still haven't seen it get on any vaunted "Top-5" list or gotten any action.
This needs fixing. Since the devs tell us they won't listen to us if we don't talk to our equally-paying-customer correspondents, I call on my un-elected correspondent to do my talking for me.
RbT
I have brought this up, the Architect correspondent and I are both weighing in on the same side of this. I have also told TH I'd like to have a long discussion with him on this topic.There is one additional issue weighing in to the equation besides the lots to storage space, and that is the footprint of a PA Hall. The devs also have standards when it comes to real estate. People are already using PA Halls as houses or sporting multiple PA Halls per PA.The Devs are worried about anything that makes PA Halls more attractive than they already are, because they already make up a good chunk of taken real estate.
The PA Hall lot to storage space ratio is something that impacts some players very heavily (like me, trying to be a weaponsmith with only one harvester) and others not at all (like pure combat PAs who can have many other buildings for storage).
Increasingstorageor lowering lotsis being investigated, but I am not optimistic. Rather, I think it would be in our interests to work toward a system that pulls away from the PA Hall somewhat. PAs could reflect much more individuality if they could choose other building types with other lot/storage requirements that don't make the Devs as concerned about real estate. I'm getting the sense that PA Halls are going to remain rather limiting structures, but we could broaden our horizons and get much more for the system than extra lots or storage.
So, there are my full thoughts on the issue as it stands. I do read every PA topic in this forum and I like having a back and forth dialogue with anyone who is willing. 
Well the thing is that even for us combat characters who don't necessarilly need storage or extra lots (why would you be a crafter as well as drop the hall is beyond me, unless you are a guild of crafters but then let others carry your resource woes) the item req is limiting. I haven't got an item in my hall that could be considered "stored" there. No resources nor items for sale. All that we do have is furniture, actually you can see most of it in the link of my sig...I haven't quite finished the main for various reasons, arranged in a way that is pretty spartan. Only a few rooms are decorated lavishly if you would stretch it, and yet we have hit the cap. I can't really make the place look anywhere near as nice as it could thanks to only 250 items being allowed.
While new guilds may be able to benefit from having a large home double as their PA hall we wont, and frankly I don't see that change as a victory but rather a concession. I mean why would I give up our structure that took us a good while to get. I mean it's about half a year old. The lot requirements are limiting enough that unless you have a server swap or second account (and there is no way to stop this) it would be somewhat silly to use one as a home...mall perhaps but still that brings down your abilities to almost uselessness. Excepting tatooine halls and Noobian (you can still get a house) there is nothing you can really do. Have 1 factory or 1 harvester...yay. They don't have to increase storage by a drastic amount I mean even just 50 more items would be incredibly helpful.
Jascentia wrote:I have brought this up, the Architect correspondent and I are both weighing in on the same side of this. I have also told TH I'd like to have a long discussion with him on this topic.There is one additional issue weighing in to the equation besides the lots to storage space, and that is the footprint of a PA Hall. The devs also have standards when it comes to real estate. People are already using PA Halls as houses or sporting multiple PA Halls per PA.The Devs are worried about anything that makes PA Halls more attractive than they already are, because they already make up a good chunk of taken real estate.
The PA Hall lot to storage space ratio is something that impacts some players very heavily (like me, trying to be a weaponsmith with only one harvester) and others not at all (like pure combat PAs who can have many other buildings for storage).
Increasingstorageor lowering lotsis being investigated, but I am not optimistic. Rather, I think it would be in our interests to work toward a system that pulls away from the PA Hall somewhat. PAs could reflect much more individuality if they could choose other building types with other lot/storage requirements that don't make the Devs as concerned about real estate. I'm getting the sense that PA Halls are going to remain rather limiting structures, but we could broaden our horizons and get much more for the system than extra lots or storage.
So, there are my full thoughts on the issue as it stands. I do read every PA topic in this forum and I like having a back and forth dialogue with anyone who is willing.
I think placing a small house w/ a guild management terminal is retarded. PA halls are supposed to be grand. They're supposed to be the center of your PA. They're supposed to be expensive (credit wise) or everyone in the world would have their own PA. I sugest you kick the lots down to 5 (1 more than a large house) and kick the items upto 350.
Maybe you can make smaller versions of a PA hall.. Anything but a house. That would make as much sense as me using my personal mineral extractor to manage my guild.
Redeeding the hall without a guild would be more of a temporary work around more so than a fix, because some people do use these as houses for different reasons.
The other idea Jas was speaking of was maybe having the option to build a guild terminal into other housing types such as smalls, mediums, and larges so people wouldn't be stalled on lots and still be able to maintain their guild. It is a good idea if the devs don't want to change PA halls, but I think even then a PA hall should still stand out and have more room than a Large House, that's just my personal opinion there.
Thanks for the responses, this is a good coversation to have. To continue:
I don't think anyone should tell another PA what they should be usingas their central home. Ideally there would be entire new structures for Guild Terminals. Like cantina-style buildings, base-style buildings, and other themes. PAs would choose depending upon what fits them best. Starting with existing structures would get the system off the ground with little additional code or art resources. The PA Hall will probably still be creme of the crop.... BUT, having those other options available would reduce the pressure on the number of PA Halls so therewould be roomto make the current Halls more useful.
That is one of several ways to look at the issue. We could also consider ways to remove PA Halls, like thosethat are not being used for PAs.There could also be a limit for the number of PA Halls per PA. However, both of these measures would require fresh code. This means that it would take a long time to work in, and would have a greater chance of being buggy. But, I would rather have fewer PA Halls by choice than by force.
If they just made PA Halls take 5 lots and 350 items PAs would place greater multiples of them, and even more players would use them as houses.The Architect Correspondent and I have brought this up nontheless. While it is being investigated, I'm bringing up new ideas because I think *something* will have to reduce/limit the number of PA Halls beforethe Devs will be willing toshift the stats significantly.
Message Edited by Jascentia on 12-27-2003 06:01 PM
I understand, and honestly I like the idea of other structures being able to become PA halls. After all not all PA's are massive faceless entities with hundreds of legions. Mine started out as a number of guys that met up on the penny arcade forums and we grew from there and frankly I would have loved to of started out with a medium and moved up to the PA hall structure (just make things easier) and implementing this would be helpful. However like I said it really doesn't confront the problem at hand. It will potentially lower the number of actual halls being placed or at least keep the amount surfacing a little bit lower, but that in no way helps out decorating the huge halls, just the lot restriction in a backdoor manner.
If I was able to furnish mine nicely and still have room for a spare suit of armor or some resources or random crap that I would put inside of a home (since the hall is my home...well city hall for me now, but not all of us can be mayor) it would be perfect. You can keep the lots high making the decision to upgrade from small home to hall an actual decision that warrants some thought as opposed to a splurge by the leader but please ask them to up the storage by even just a little bit.50-100 items would go a long way in my opinion. They don't have to double the storage or half the lots to fulfill our dreams or mine at least. I don't want to have a warehouse just a building that reflects my clan in a positive light. If I can squeeze in a few crates of spice or some resources that I dont want to carry around then so much the better but that isn't as huge of a concern for me. Honestly a bank, backpack, and a few storage droids is more then enough for a non crafter to carry everything they want/need.
To me the best way to help limit the number of halls that exist is to prevent server swapping of characters just to use lots. Have the server delete characters that go unplayed for a certain amount of time no matter the account status. Now I dont mean weeks but if a character hasn't been logged into for lets say an hour in half a year then just get rid of it. This will prevent the "free" halls as well as the ghost town cities that exist thanks to server swapping so 2 birds in 1 patch. While true people will probably just log on to that character every couple of months as a just in case...if you aren't making anything off of the proposition would you really bother? To help people that plan on joining the peace corps or something like that maybe allow a way to get their account stalled so that it won't get deleted and all that good stuff just since I'm sure that there is someway that a person won't be able to access a computer in half a year. It makes me shudder but still it probably exists.
As it stands now, the PA hall owner cannot have his or herown house, and is be forced to store his or her personal stuff either in the PA hall (which prevents decoration of the hall and/or storing of communal materials) or in a friend's house (which is also problematic for a variety of reasons). Even for combat types who do not need harvesters, this is a large strain. Let the PA hall owner have enough lots left to place his or her own house.
Potential solutions
- reduce the PA hall lot requirement to 8 (not a big concession from the devs)
- create 1 lot houses that are not nabooan.
Same goes for all housing (especially large houses 6 lots 250 items - should be 450). When the item nerf happened we were told the 75 item per lot limit would be adjusted up.... guess they still haven't gotten around to that....
It is actually hillarious, the reason for the item nerf was to reduce people from using houses as storage, but you can still get unlimited storage using a vendor, or many other methods.... All the item nerf did was make it difficult to decorate your house....
5 lots, 350 items.... and significantly raise the resources required to make this building. Make this building cost 800k to build perhaps. Also require PA Halls to have at least6registered members. After a certain amount of time without this number of members, the PA disbands and the only option on the terminal is to redeed to the building.
The problem as the devs see it, is they don't want everyone living in PA halls. Fair enough. And I don't believe that just any joe schmo and his pal should be able to start a PA.Forming a PA should not be a given. It should be an accomplishment like any other.
Ok, you say you don't want to dictate what type of building a PA might want as their HQ, the problem is, everyone will choose a small house if the maintenance is cheap. Sure the PA Hall stores more, but why not just have some medium houses for each people, or larges for that matter and forget about this one high maintenance building.
I'm all for having PA terminals in all size buildings.... but once you establish a terminal in the building... the maintenance for that building should be set at the "PA Rate". So the small house would have the maintenance of a PA Hall. This way it's fair across the board in terms of cost for all PA's, and style can be taken into account.
-Ex
I guess I am a bit discouraged also.
The only2 items that even make the top 50 overall IMHO are the issues of Lot Requirements and Storage capacity.
It seems whenever they are brought up (and Please, Please, do not take this as flame) Jacentia is immediatly there to throw a wet blanket on them.
If the Dev's are that intransigent on these2 issues ..... :-(
Then I see all the other stuff, and admittedly this is my opinion, as Fluff. Nice but not that important.
Mangle
Here's the formula so far... Green for the PA Community actions, Blue for my actions, Red for Developer actions.
You all want A. I not only agree, I want A too.I bring A to the Developers.
The Developers say we'll consider it, but we have concerns X, Y, and Z.
I could just tell the Devs "We Want A!" all over again.
Instead, I become the wet blanket, I guess... I have been bringing up this subject saying, "Okay, there are concerns X Y and Z. How can these concerns be addressed so that the Devs no longer have any objection to A?"
Your response, "We Want A!"
So, I'm not sure what you'd like me to do at this point. I can't tell you the Devs are going to give this to us on a silver platter if that indeed is not the case. I do want it though! I do believe that the Devs have logical reasons for not increasing storage. I do believe that once these concerns are removed we can have what we want. I'd love to hear all kinds of solutions for reducing the number of PA Halls.
Unlike City Halls, which are limited per planet, the ONLY way the devs have of controlling how many PA Halls there are is by their desireability.Thus, if they are already concerned that there are too many Halls, they are very unlikely to make PA Halls any MORE accomodating than they already are. They are a huge pain in the butt for meright now in terms of storage AND lots, but, they are still so desireable that they areprobably taking up more of the landscape than the Devs had intended.
I'm saying it is very likely that we have to address the Developer's concerns *before* we will get any resolution on PA storage or lots.If you feel I'm approaching this subject incorrectly, I am always open to critique and suggestion. My IM box has been empty! I always respond to instant messages. I just ask that you read the entire argument and the obstacles in *our* paths before jumping to a conclusion.
Thanks much.