Player Associations Archive
Thread: A good leader knows how to delegate.......
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ArgonOrakio
Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:16 am
#1
I'm afraid it's just not an option, not much to do about it... 
But... is it absolutely nessecary to be able to do this?Sure it would make life easier, but There are always ways around problems, and if the person able to change permissions (aka guildleader) is missing it is possible to choose a new one.
Jascentia
Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:34 am
#2
I can tell you why this isn't as easy as it sounds. Should someone who can change permissions be able to change permissions of someone else who can change permissions? Probably not. Also, someone who can change permissions should not be able to change the permissions of the guild leader. Yet another worry is... what happens when the guild leader leaves and one person with permissions edit abilityis *not* the person the guild wishes to vote for? This member could kick out their opposition and make it so that only their friends can invite new members. This would make it very easy to hijack a guild that doesn't have an active leader.
Basically,they weregoing to add this feature I would hope they would add a lot of additional code to keep it from beingan outlet for grief. So, I am willing to be patient if that is what it takes to get it right.
MajorXP
Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:51 pm
#3
Why cant I as a Guild Leader give people the ability to change other people's permissions?
Rothin
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:04 pm
#4
They could do something like that Major, but with the way the interface currently is, it'd be even more clogged with info and harder to manage. I'm sure they're listening to our thoughts and will give us some much needed love when the time is right.
But I agree.. we do need some way to be able to allow it. But Jas had a lot of good points. If the interface was redesigned, I could see adding more options to only allow setting of permissions for a certain group. But.. at the same time, they could add in the "Council" structure in which there wouldn't be a single leader, and then all Council would be able to delegate permission, with one central leader to invite other Council. Mind as well toss that in there too.
MajorXP
Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:24 am
#5
Jascentia wrote:
I can tell you why this isn't as easy as it sounds. Should someone who can change permissions be able to change permissions of someone else who can change permissions? Probably not. Also, someone who can change permissions should not be able to change the permissions of the guild leader. Yet another worry is... what happens when the guild leader leaves and one person with permissions edit abilityis *not* the person the guild wishes to vote for? This member could kick out their opposition and make it so that only their friends can invite new members. This would make it very easy to hijack a guild that doesn't have an active leader.
Basically,they weregoing to add this feature I would hope they would add a lot of additional code to keep it from beingan outlet for grief. So, I am willing to be patient if that is what it takes to get it right.
just add a bunch more options....
[] - able to change other members abilty to invite others
[] - able to change other members ability to sponsor
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
that's not too hard right?
AgekVahoba
Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:58 am
#6
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
thats an important one Cohav!
In regards to the interface... wouldnt it be nice if you could /rostersave (like mail save) your current members, their info, ect... into another program, make the changes, and them load it back up. No, that would make life to easy.
_____________________________
Lionbar
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:19 pm
#7
AgekVahoba wrote:
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
thats an important one Cohav!
In regards to the interface... wouldnt it be nice if you could /rostersave (like mail save) your current members, their info, ect... into another program, make the changes, and them load it back up. No, that would make life to easy.
Would create too much spam IMO
MajorXP
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:23 pm
#8
Lionbar wrote:
AgekVahoba wrote:
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
thats an important one Cohav!
In regards to the interface... wouldnt it be nice if you could /rostersave (like mail save) your current members, their info, ect... into another program, make the changes, and them load it back up. No, that would make life to easy.
Would create too much spam IMO
What would create too much spam? Guild email is already available...but only the technical guild master can give anyone access to send it out. I let any member who has completed a few simple tasks to send email to the guild. We have never had a spam issue....
what are you talking about...?
Lionbar
Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:48 am
#9
MajorXP wrote:
Lionbar wrote:
AgekVahoba wrote:
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
thats an important one Cohav!
In regards to the interface... wouldnt it be nice if you could /rostersave (like mail save) your current members, their info, ect... into another program, make the changes, and them load it back up. No, that would make life to easy.
Would create too much spam IMO
What would create too much spam? Guild email is already available...but only the technical guild master can give anyone access to send it out. I let any member who has completed a few simple tasks to send email to the guild. We have never had a spam issue....
what are you talking about...?
About 20 members have guild mail for various purpose. If I let 50-100 members have guild mail, the amount of mail would increase, because people would just use it whenever. Hence Spam
A system at the moment that I have in place is that only the council & Guild Elders have the email. This way if someone wants a mail sent to the guild, they have to ask. If it's not relevent to the guild then we don't send it.
I do think that the guild leader should be able to have a command like /transferguildleader or something & in a case where the leader just leaves without a trace, the CSR's should be able to help. PA's are the core of this game & they should realise that helping them out is a good thing, rather than something to be ignored.
Is that a better explaination?
MajorXP
Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:04 am
#10
Lionbar wrote:
MajorXP wrote:
Lionbar wrote:
AgekVahoba wrote:
[] - able to change other members ability to email guild
thats an important one Cohav!
In regards to the interface... wouldnt it be nice if you could /rostersave (like mail save) your current members, their info, ect... into another program, make the changes, and them load it back up. No, that would make life to easy.
Would create too much spam IMO
What would create too much spam? Guild email is already available...but only the technical guild master can give anyone access to send it out. I let any member who has completed a few simple tasks to send email to the guild. We have never had a spam issue....
what are you talking about...?
About 20 members have guild mail for various purpose. If I let 50-100 members have guild mail, the amount of mail would increase, because people would just use it whenever. Hence Spam
A system at the moment that I have in place is that only the council & Guild Elders have the email. This way if someone wants a mail sent to the guild, they have to ask. If it's not relevent to the guild then we don't send it.
I do think that the guild leader should be able to have a command like /transferguildleader or something & in a case where the leader just leaves without a trace, the CSR's should be able to help. PA's are the core of this game & they should realise that helping them out is a good thing, rather than something to be ignored.
Is that a better explaination?
Yep...I understand what you are saying now.
However, I have over 200 people in my Guild and give anyone of them access to guild email once they are a full member. We have never had an issue.
Jascentia
Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:16 am
#11
Granting the permission to grant permissions is more of a technical challenge.
As for guild mail.... I assume if you're giving someone the ability to grant permissions you will have an understanding with this person about when and how those permissions should be granted. They shouldn't be giving everyone in the guild mail permissions unless that is how you want the guild run. Maybe in some guilds having everyone with mail permissions would create horrible spam and other guilds it wouldn't, but it isn't the main concern.
I do like the added idea of granting the ability to assign permissions... being selective about which permissions you allow your members to change.I just want to stress that there are technical as well as allegiencechallenges which will keep us from seeing these things for a long time. On the technical front, right now the ability to grant permissions is an "all or nothing" setting. Either you are the leader and you can set them all, or you aren't the leader and you can set none of them. I believe new code structures would have to be put in place to divide out each permission.
Also, there is still the spectre of Allegience. If one person in the guild is left with some permissions but not others... and the leader leaves... This person can essentially assume control of the guild regardless of what the remaining majority wants. This is already a problem when one person is left with kick ability, and the guild wants to vote for someone other than the "kicker". So, you end up with one person hijacking the guild and preventing it from ever having full leadership. The remaining majority is left with no choice other than to reform. This is a growing problem for guilds.
I agree with Rothin that this feature would be most likely to be implemented in concert with the institution of guild ranks. That way, we could specify a rank of officers who would be able to tweak certain permissions.
More debate welcome...
Lionbar
Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:29 am
#12
Jascentia wrote:
Granting the permission to grant permissions is more of a technical challenge.
I'm not a technical person, but I'm sure this is to do with the -Leader- Tag that PA leaders have (check with /guildstatus while targeting yourself). Can't they just add a tag to the people who are delegated these permissions? A Guild Leader can already add Guild specific tags to other players profiles (titles) so there must be a way to do a game specific one too. It doesn't even have to be visible.
As for guild mail.... I assume if you're giving someone the ability to grant permissions you will have an understanding with this person about when and how those permissions should be granted. They shouldn't be giving everyone in the guild mail permissions unless that is how you want the guild run. Maybe in some guilds having everyone with mail permissions would create horrible spam and other guilds it wouldn't, but it isn't the main concern.
IMO guildmail should be used for Guild info - not for various Crafters to advertise their wares, or to involve the guild in personal fueds (which happened once in my guild, hence the removal of guild mail). I tend to use guild mail as a message board for guild events (wouldn't that be a good idea, eh? A message board in the PA Hall where people could Advertise, or arrange events?). If members see a guild mail, they know it's important info, rather than just another mail for them to delete.
I do like the added idea of granting the ability to assign permissions... being selective about which permissions you allow your members to change.I just want to stress that there are technical as well as allegiencechallenges which will keep us from seeing these things for a long time. On the technical front, right now the ability to grant permissions is an "all or nothing" setting. Either you are the leader and you can set them all, or you aren't the leader and you can set none of them. I believe new code structures would have to be put in place to divide out each permission.
Also, there is still the spectre of Allegience. If one person in the guild is left with some permissions but not others... and the leader leaves... This person can essentially assume control of the guild regardless of what the remaining majority wants. This is already a problem when one person is left with kick ability, and the guild wants to vote for someone other than the "kicker". So, you end up with one person hijacking the guild and preventing it from ever having full leadership. The remaining majority is left with no choice other than to reform. This is a growing problem for guilds.
I agree with Rothin that this feature would be most likely to be implemented in concert with the institution of guild ranks. That way, we could specify a rank of officers who would be able to tweak certain permissions.
I believe most of us do this in our own way anyway, although a specific 'chain of command' feature put in by SOE would be a godsend.
More debate welcome...
MajorXP
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:31 am
#13
Jascentia wrote:
Granting the permission to grant permissions is more of a technical challenge.
Also, there is still the spectre of Allegience. If one person in the guild is left with some permissions but not others... and the leader leaves... This person can essentially assume control of the guild regardless of what the remaining majority wants. This is already a problem when one person is left with kick ability, and the guild wants to vote for someone other than the "kicker". So, you end up with one person hijacking the guild and preventing it from ever having full leadership. The remaining majority is left with no choice other than to reform. This is a growing problem for guilds.
I respectfully disagree Jascentia. The entire assumption is that the Leader leaves without having some sort of succession plan and leaves people with access to admin features of the guild that the majority disagrees with. That sounds like a guild that has no chance of success regardless of who the new leader is.
Guilds reform. People quit. The successful Guilds are those that have a plan of action and everyone knows the plan. If the Guild depends on one person to run everything, it will ultimately fail.
Also, about the guy who posted above about theguild email andhisfeud....This same type of arguement can be said about guildchat, but everyone has access to that too!! Are you going to remove guildchat?
There was situation a long time ago in our guild where two people started a feud and both were removed. Later, once the situation was understood, one person was allowed to return and the other was not. Try to manage the exceptions....the not the majority.
As I stated - every member of my 200+ guilld who does six simple steps (that could be done in 20 min) has access to guild mail. What do regular members use it for? Not much. However, when someone is having a 'going out of business sale', or needs help by people looking at their vendors, or is reminding everyone of some pending event, this is information that everyone in the guild can use. If someoene does not like hearing about it, they can either hit the delete key or /guildremove.
While guildchat and guildemail can be abused, that risk must be taken. You must have trust in your members and communicate the rules as well. Bottom line, this is a MMORPG. Communication is the key to fun and success.
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