Player Associations Archive

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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TrekDude wrote:
You forget that xp from kills is not shared, it is whoever does most damage. So you get like 1/3rd xp in groups sometimes, or you steal everyone else's. And HALF solo? Are you kidding? There's WAY too much grinding as it is. Think about the people going for jedi, increasing the, what, 30 mill xp to 60 mill+?

No thanks....

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I group alot and we always got good xp from it. If you set it up so everyone gets xp just for poking the mob with a stick then you will have that elite master running around leveling everyone else easy peasy.

Yes half solo. Would make alot more sense and be alot more fun. Everytime one of those groupies decides to talk how he mastered such and such profession in a day, wecan look em in the eye and say "Really? Took me 2 weeks, guess I am just tougher and more dedicated then you."

And as for jedi........pfffffttttt. They gotta too easy now as it is.

PB32

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First off, a personal comment, high level Jedi have it easy. Low level Jedi are almost powerless and less effective than a novice starter. That aside!

This type of plan would not help out players, it would instead make more 'nerf' cries sound throughout the forums. The goal with grouping is to encourage you to do it while not forcing you to. Cutting xp for non grouping isn't the answer for that for sure.

I think that the best way to handle groups and xp would be a scaling system. We all know and recognize that the 'most damage' = 'most xp' system doesn't work. Especially for low level combat characters who just simply can't deal enough damage and that forces them to solo if they want to advance. Instead, we need to move back to a system that shares xp for the kills to all members who do any damage to the creature, similiar to how JTL does it now in space. However, you don't want to make it too easy for this method so it becomes the new way to grind with a triple elite master grinding your xp for you by killing the mobs.

Instead I think that what should happen is when a mob is killed the total xp for it should be divided out to each group member that delt damage to it based on the total number of skill points they have invested. Obviously, the higher level you are the more of the xp share you are going to recieve and the lower level the less of it you will recieve(Which will help reduce the power leveling method). However, by using this system over the most damage, it will equalize the xp gain between Novice and Elite so that each person is going to get worthwhile experience. Obviously you would want to have a group xp bonus to make sure that Novice characters are getting decent enough xp so that they are encouraged to group with others instead of encouraged to solo. This is a Massive Multiplayer game afterall.

Obviously the idea itself is rough, but I think you guys get the idea of how it would work. It still isn't a perfect plan, but it would make it worthwhile for Novices and Elites to group instead of them playing solo grinding non stop, they can experience the game with more veteran players while still advancing at a decent pace.

Message Edited by Nalgol on 01-18-2005 11:15 PM

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Nalgol wrote:

the problem is every master provession (exept master marksman/master brawler)is to strong to hunt in non solo groups if a master rifleman can kill a sharnaff lair in 20 sec

he simply dont need a group and if he would be in a non solo group he would get 90% of the xp

this whol mess can only be fixed by nefing all proffessions/buffs/amor/cob/staking/weapons/dots/poison into obliveon (witch the combat ubgrade hopefully will do)

Message Edited by Nalgol on 01-18-2005 11:15 PM

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The Combat Upgrade will balance out the system for sure. The reason I'm suggesting a scaling xp system is not so the Rifleman in this case would have to fight a lair that isn't a challenge to him, but would allow a Novice to tag along with him on a mission or random lair that he would normally go after. And instead of the Rifleman getting 99% of the xp, he'd get about 80% or so of a total, then a slight bonus would be applied for the lower level characters giving him a worthwhile amount of xp just for 'trying' to help, thus he'd be learning from a more advanced fighter in this case. It kind of goes back to the entire Master vs Apprentice angle.

You forget that xp from kills is not shared, it is whoever does most damage. So you get like 1/3rd xp in groups sometimes, or you steal everyone else's. And HALF solo? Are you kidding? There's WAY too much grinding as it is. Think about the people going for jedi, increasing the, what, 30 mill xp to 60 mill+?

No thanks....

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TrekDude wrote:
You forget that xp from kills is not shared, it is whoever does most damage. So you get like 1/3rd xp in groups sometimes, or you steal everyone else's. And HALF solo? Are you kidding? There's WAY too much grinding as it is. Think about the people going for jedi, increasing the, what, 30 mill xp to 60 mill+?

No thanks....

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TrekDude wrote:
You forget that xp from kills is not shared, it is whoever does most damage.

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Just for clarity so new characters that might be reading this don't get the wrong impression, anyone who does less than the most damage doesn't not get any XP. XP is based on the amount of damage you inflict, up to a cap for that target and somhow scales with your skills. 2 equal characters can fire-away at a lair simultaneously and get equal xp, possibly even capping for that lair. You can run along tattoine and see a group of 20 going after a krayt and autofire away at it the entire time the group is doing the same and it's possible to get the exact same XP after it's dead that you would have gotten if you had killed the Krayt yourself. Now, if a novice marksman follows a TKM to a lair the TKM may have the lair gone before the marksman gets more than 3 or 4 (weak) shots off and hence almost no XP and I have personally had encounters the one or sometimes 2 players I was with could literally destroy the entire lair and all the creatures with it faster than I could get more than a couple of shots off... target, try to fire, oops it's already dead 0xp for me.

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Rothin wrote:

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Nalgol wrote:

the problem is every master provession (exept master marksman/master brawler)is to strong to hunt in non solo groups if a master rifleman can kill a sharnaff lair in 20 sec

he simply dont need a group and if he would be in a non solo group he would get 90% of the xp

this whol mess can only be fixed by nefing all proffessions/buffs/amor/cob/staking/weapons/dots/poison into obliveon (witch the combat ubgrade hopefully will do)

Message Edited by Nalgol on 01-18-2005 11:15 PM

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The Combat Upgrade will balance out the system for sure. The reason I'm suggesting a scaling xp system is not so the Rifleman in this case would have to fight a lair that isn't a challenge to him, but would allow a Novice to tag along with him on a mission or random lair that he would normally go after. And instead of the Rifleman getting 99% of the xp, he'd get about 80% or so of a total, then a slight bonus would be applied for the lower level characters giving him a worthwhile amount of xp just for 'trying' to help, thus he'd be learning from a more advanced fighter in this case. It kind of goes back to the entire Master vs Apprentice angle.

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if this was the case, I wouldn't want any lower level profession taging along with me if I'm a high level profession but not yet mastered....because I could do it solo and get 100% xp and won't have to share it......now if I was a master and don't need the xp, I still would not want a low level character taging along with me because he would get left behind and trying to keep up with me will not help him much at all.....because as a master of anyelite combat profession that's not concerned with xp gain, I play efficiently....that means kill the fastest, cheapest way possiblewith minimal time but will the potential for great gain (legendary loot or awesome SEA's or premium crystals..etc).....a low levelcharacter can't keep up with that.....and I'm surelynot gonna hunt things on his level because there is absolutely nothing in that for me....money is too low,loot is fairly non-existent, the challenge is minimal or none at all and the xp gain is irrelevant......

What i mean is that if he's something like master marksman or novice swordsmanand I'm a master of any elite profession or even 4444 of an elite profession, I'll be killing my targets in 3 - 4 seconds....I'll be attacking 2 - 3 times in the time it takes him to attack once......I will also, shred through targets faster than he probably can target them becuase I'm doing AOE attacks.....Then there's the question of defending himself.....The level of mobs I would have to hunt for me to even be interested would be too high of a level for him.....when I'm getting hit for 400 points damage per hit....and have mitigation 3, high RD, MD, and def vs mods....what will he have that will defend him enough to keep him alive....I simply would be extending my time if I were trying to keep him alive...In the time it would take me to heal him or protect him, I could be finished with the mission or mob.

So right now, this is not a good idea at all.....until CU changes the difficulty in destroying a mob to where it takes a master a while and presents a challenge (like needing a group to do things), then it just wouldn't be beneficial for either the master nor the groupie to level together. The master is simply too fast and powerful and the groupie isn't fast enough or powerful enough....as it stands right now with the current system, many people don't group to level for just about the same reasons... but another reason is that what a high level or master player would hunt (krayts, NS, Geo cave, DWB, Kimo's....etc) a low level character wouldn't survive 1 or 2 hits and thus they would be more disadvantaged with probably no xp gain and also more of a nuisances than an actual help because you would have to drop your guard to help them out. It's just too much work most of the time grouping with players that are too far apart in level.

For these reasons alone, is why I never got in a group with anyone that was more than 1 or 2 boxes above me.

Now if everyone in the group was the same or near the same level, it could work because everyone would be on the same playing field...and the gap in speed and power would not effect the ability of any player to gain anything from grouping together, whether it be money, loot or xp.

I wouldn't mind a change in the way xp works in groups and solo but there has to be a better way so that you don't put a limit on what any player can do in a group or by themselves.

I have to admit, that I'm coming from a soloist point of view and my reason for being a soloist when I'm grinding or hunting for loot is simply because I am more efficient by myself than with a group. when I play by myself, I am equipped, buffed, have my targeted mob(s) picked out and up and hunting/grinding as soon as my buffs are done. with a group, your gonna spend 30 minutes minimum just getting organized.....I've lost 45 minutes on buffs in the past waiting on a whole group to get buffs, get equiped, waiting on people for whatever reason.....by the time the whole group gets up and running good, it's time for me to turn the cpu off and do real life things......bottom line, I can do more solo in 30 minutes what a full veteran group can do in an hour.....because the only thing that's slowing me down is me.

Now this may sound bad and you might think I'm rushing or not enjoying the game....but I actually take my time but the time I take is still a lot faster than any grouping is. The only time I enjoy grouping is for quest based missions like the DWB, Geo cave (in the beginning), the corvette...etc. the other times is when I want to hunt stuff that I know is very difficult to handle alone, like krayts (even though I could solo anything in the game given enough time and preparation)......also, I'd rather solo grind then group for the extra xp bonus.....waiting on a solo group or a normal group just takes way too long for my playing style. I need efficiency, I need players to have knowledge of what they are doing (I don't want to teach during the hunt...at least not a lot anyway)

Now if the high level player didn't get some of his xp subtracted for having a weaker player with him, then I wouldn't mind having a groupie with me so as long as he can keep up with my fast pace (I don't play slow, I get mission, get to waypoint, hope of bike, kill, jump on bike and repeat..no need to linger....becuase i've already done every kind of combat there is and there's no reason for me to slow down). If the master player or high level player got 100% of the xp and the groupie got a slightly less amount of xp but still with the grouping bonus but not as much xp as the master, that could work....otherwise, leave the xp system alone...it hasn't been a problem yet....at least I've heard of no complaining of it, but then again, I haven't been looking.

I hope that the CU makes it so each profession has more of a role, and that groups is encouraged and much more imporant than it is now.

Message Edited by Tavtrin on 01-21-2005 06:39 AM

Message Edited by Gooney on 01-21-2005 02:52 PM

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Gooney wrote:

Really for grouping to and soloing to both work and be fullfilling to all sides you do this.

Solo-Hunter : Receives full xp for Mob.

Groups: Scaling XP modifer per mob, related directly to the size of the group.

2 people XP * .05 meaning mob XP + 5%

3 people XP * .10

4 people XP * .15

And so on until you reach full group size and a modifer of 100% so any mob killed is worth twice its solo XP. XP distribution is then evenly divided between all members regardless of the damage they have done.

One must remember that not all members will be there for DPS reasons but to fullfill rolls, some will set states, some Tank, some will heal damage, some will heal states, some may be along to heal battlefatigue.

Really who cares if tiny groups run around with a tripple master that does all of the damage? In that case they would actually level slower than a solo player.

Groups are designed not simply to take on larger critters but so that they can kill lots of critters very fast. So despite the fact that each critter is giving less xp per person in a group, any group can kill multiples of critters at a much higher rate than a solo player.

Groups are primarily in games for the social aspect, so you can do things together. That gets forgotten when we start worrying about leveling speed, and becomes secondary in players minds when it is obvious that grouping is actually detrimental to your leveling progress.

What you need to do as a designer is take the assumption that most players prefer to hunt in groups. Then set up your group mechanism such that it is never a hinderance to advancement but an enhancement to advancment. You absolutly must make sure that people that wish to solo are able to do it.

-Gooney

Message Edited by Gooney on 01-21-2005 02:52 PM

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That's more or less what I'm proposing. The one thing that I disagree with is that you can't evenly divide out xp between all people. That creates a very easy way for people to power level other characters. Say you have a new friend, he starts playing, you get your guild together and he joins the group. You guys go out and start hunting on Dathomir for Nightsisters or something similiar. He's just ganiing a VERY high amount of xp for very little. The modifiers above do need to be in place to encourage grouping OVER soloing but you also need to hand out the experience to the group based on their level of combat ability as well. A Novice should not be bringing in as much xp as a Master but should still get enough xp to make it more viable to go with the group than to grind solo.

Message Edited by Gooney on 01-21-2005 05:52 PM