Pistoleer Archive

OK, please read the 8/1/03 issues post first. After that, please respond with any comments, new issues, clarifications, or otherwise, anything pertaining to the next issues report we want to submit. I think we have most everything in there, but we have a second chance to update it before sending, since we are just now getting feedback on the first one.

I have tested Multi-Target Pistol Shot a little lately..and when it works, it seems to do AOE damage somewhere between stopping shot and fan blast (in both damage and delay). I will post that soon with data.

I think weapon speed is not working as intended, although I don't know if that should make the pistoleer issues list..more of a general combat issue. Maybe I'll include it as an FYI.

If anyone can get test data on KD resist or stun/dizzy resist, etc..that could be useful to add to the dodge results.

With the 75% damage reduction PvP patch, I'm sure balance issues will start popping up...but have to test before we can have an issue with it.

I'll rephrase the BH issue to remove the words "BH" or remove it completely..i'm not sure it got communicated effectively (see the new post on the issue and see if you agree).

I'm still reading, but let's get this rolling.

I REALLY want our defense bonuses to work. That has to be the most important issue. I'd think then making sure the special abilities shots are doing what they're supposed to is a close second.

Main issues we need an answer on now.

Are our specials doing what they are meant to do?

Is disarming shot 2 doing what it is suppose to? If so then rename it.

If so can we get disarming shot 1changed? Make it unequip thier weapon. The damage this shot does doesn't destroy much so I would rather have a consistant effect happen one I could count on and use. Otherwise it is just another useless special.

How about adding in some diffrent ammo types that we could say equip our guns with kind of like a power up works but that could change the damage type of our guns for say 100 shots. All other factors of the gun would stay the same only the type of damage would change. Would make it nicer to keep using the weapon you like but on change it a little if certain mobs come after you. Of couse this would be an over all combat abiltiy not something just for pistoleers.

Disarming shot 1 is useless.

Body shot 3 should be significantly better than body shot 2, or at least noticeably better than body shot 2.

What is with the DX2? The scout pistol is way better, this is a joke, there is no Pistoleer pistol.

1) Does dodge work?

2) Does knockdown resist work?

3) Does melee defense work?

4) Does ranged defense work?

1) Here's a newish one: Point Blank Area 2 only seems to affect the target (not others at close range). I remember this used to work until last week.

2) I have a very specific recommendation for Body Shot 3: Increase the rate of fire so it matches BS2. I think that alone would significantly increase the coolness of the skill. If it still seems lame after that, i'd consider decreasing the HAM cost closer to that of BS2. But I think the ROF increase would be the best thing for it.

Here's one way you could try to phrase the "BH vs. Pistoleer" issue:

There is a certain unnamed class which also uses the pistol extensively as a weapon. Now, let us compare these classes at the master level. The Master Pistoleer, after picking up 18 skill boxes, is pretty darn good with a pistol. However, the Master of this certain unnamed class, while dedicating only four skill boxes to pistol use, will have both better speed and better accuracy than the Pistoleer, as well as some pretty cool special moves.

Now, I think it's sort of cool that the unnamed class are offensive monsters. I view them kind of like the quick-draw artists of the old west, excelling at one-on-one shootouts. So having a really high speed rating for weapons makes sense, as well as nasty special movies. However, if someone is allegedly focused on just pistol use, you'd think they're be like Olympic competition shooters: maybe not so great in a dark alley, but really really good with the gun. Instead, we almost have the reverse case. Pistol users are better at secondary traits like resistances, and melee defense.

More broadly, you'd think that expending 18 skill boxes on one family of the weapon would result in a cooler basket of tricks for those weapons than expending 4 or 6. But many users do not feel that way.

(While I'm not convinced the BH vs. Pistoleer thing is a gigantic problem, especially compared to broke stuff, that's how I would phrase it).

My main issue & i think also the main issue of many other pistoleers is how is Disarm 1 & 2 gonna work?

If Disarm1 & 2 are changed to dmg only the weap's durability(what a joke), its sure broken as hell.

So what are we left with really after the patch?

No Stun specials, No Dizzy Specials, No posture change specials, Melee Knockdown that will cost much more HAM, Specials(Disarm) that hits the weap durability.

Do we see the serious problems instead of 'Gun Twirl Special Move', 'Duel Wield' & 'Holsters'?

Please guys, serious issues before eye candy. I nearly fainted upon seeing the designers response.

I think our biggest problem, and in fact the biggest problem with many classes currently, is that the defensive skills are disabled. They need to solve that problem they ran into during beta of people taking defensive lines from multiple professions and becoming too powerful, and then turn them back on. It's kind of hard to look at offensive and defensive balance when only half of the equation is working.

I disagree that all that BS3 needs is a lower delay. At higher skill levels everything goes off once a second anyway. So changing it's delay will do nothing. It should be a bit faster to help folks out earlier on, but mainly it needs to do more damage. This is our ONLY pool targetted shot, and it targets the strongest pool (one that can be healed, and that the user isn't quickly draining themselves), so it needs to be a very significant ability or we might as well all start hitting that surrender button and go get eye shot...

I'm trying not to insult anyone here, but I would really appreciate it if people could focus on real issues for now until things are working and not cosmetic extras. We've all seen that when everyone cries nerf, classes tend to get nerfed. Well, right now everyone is laughing at pistoleers and saying they must be the strongest most functional class in the game if two of their biggest issues are wanting holsters and a twirly graphic. They'd be nice polishing touches down the road, but right now I think we have larger concerns.

And I need to eat some crow here - I had said that we shouldn't bother asking for dual wield because the devs had previously said it wouldn't happen. Well, we asked anyway, and the response was positive. So I was wrong - sorry guys.

More on dual wield though: If we get it, at the very least unarmed specialists like TKAs should get it too, and probably fencers, and possibly carbineers, and of course many mobs. So it really opens a whole can of worms. So I wouldn't expect to see it any time soon, even if they do like the idea.

And my person little "nothing" complaint that is non the less a bug and I'd like to see it fixed: The DH17 pistol that was modeled off of the DH17 carbine (I believe this is the reason for the bug) still has the carbine first shot delay that other pistols don't (but carbines do). To undesrtand what I mean, equip a pistol (non DH17) and turn on auto run. Target and fire at something while running past it. There is no pause / stutter in your running. Do the same thing with a carbine equipped and your running stops for a second as you take the first shot (but not on subsequent shots). Now do it with a DH17 pistol... it acts like a carbine.

This may be fixed with the patch later today, but having just gotten to Stances & Grips 2, this is something I noticed:

Double Tap seems to do less damage than Body Shot 2, Roll Shot, Kip Up Shot, and Dive Shot -- all of which are fairly basic Marksman skills. I have to say that I'm incredibly disappointed with this special move. I have tried it repeatedly, and tracked the damage. Even if they all hit the same HAM bar, it takes about 4 Double Taps to do the work of 1 or 2 Body Shot 2s. Have other people noticed this?

This will be "fixed" with the patch, but I don't like the direction the devs have taken it:

I also hate Disarming Shot 1. I don't want to destroy anybody's weapon, and I don't want to have mine destroyed, either. This opens the door to immeasureable griefing. I would very much prefer to see a Disarming Shot that forcibly unequipped all weapons for something like 5 seconds, or perhaps which kicked the weapon about 5 meters from someone and made it into a pile of loot that had to be recovered and re-equipped before using again. Make this an actual disarming attack rather than an attack on someone's weapon.

Anyway, great job so far Jaegen. Yours are the most scientific and comprehensive correspondent posts that I've read on these boards. If everyone put as much effort into helping test and fix their professions as you, well, we'd probably be out of Beta 4 in short order . . .

I'd like to see disarming shot unequip their weapon.

________________________

Captain Gawau Kanati

Ghost Syndicate

My concerns are, in no particular order:

-- Are defensive skills working at all? If they are working are they having the desired impact?

-- Broken Special attacks (see all of the other posts about them). Perhaps addition some additional, unique effects to the current specials.

-- Lack of advanced weapons (this is true for all of the advanced combat classes), and the associated crafting bugs with the schematics.

I can see the BH arguements and how it is shared with Carabineers. However, it's really a non-issue to me personally.

A suggestion I have is the implementation of a delay in equipping weapons, so that any person can't just automatically equip a weapon instantly. Then we could see modifiers to the appropriate advanced classes that reduce the equip speed. Thus, Disarm Shots could then be made to unequip weapons and have an actual effect on PvP combat rather than damaging weapons. As it is now, a weapon that gets "disarmed" can be instantly reequipped by pressing a hotkey. Wereas, if there is a delay in getting the weapon back in hand, then there is a great possibility of a follow-up shot. This is essentially what happens with Knockdowns, with the exception that Knowdowns prevent all other actions.

For people griping on cosmetics...please remember that immersion into a character is vital to some people...those type of changes can be easy to do and add life to a character.

I'm with a lot of people in this thread where the disarming shot as described by Q3PO is just mean spirited and flat out wrong. If the change as intended goes through, and pistoleers start using it, we're going to be so hated as a general class. I can see the /tell now as asomeones new 30k Rifle goes kaput just because I had a bad day.

Disarm Shot should be a quasi knockdown of sorts. If successful it should effectively render the gun useless for a fixed amount of time. If a player has a backup gun they can switch to that no problem, but the gun targeted should not be useable for a fixed amount of time. You could even say a sucessful shot forces the player to miss a turn as they reaquaint themselves with the trigger.

As for other issues, let me wait for the patch and play a bit before I make a judgement.

1.) Disarm shot should disarm the weapon for a short period of time. This will mean that you cannot hotkey the weapon back in once disarm shot hits. If the intent is to damage the weapon then the damage should be what the score show's currently (example: right now you do 300 damage with disarm shot, after their fix, you should now do 300 damage to their weapon condition. Once condition reaches zero, they lose their weapon). Problem with this is no one will want to duel against a pistoleer because they will all end up loosing 10k+ in credits in weapons.

2.) Here is a good one for you, I currently have a bug that will not let me unequip a weapon which was sold in bazaar 6 days ago, the weapon is junk, so I can't do my regular hunting. I was getting some resources to sell when I was attacked by a rogue fambaa, I'm happy to say that I saw my FIRST dodge, followed by a death, LOL. So number two should be to get dodge to work more then just ONCE in... how long have we been playing?

3.) BS3 should do more damage then BS2. IF, big IF because it's most likey the answer from the dev's, IF BS3 is working as intended, then the ham cost is OFF by ALOT. IF BS3 is suppose to do same damage as BS2, then the HAM cost should be HALF of BS2, otherwise, remove BS3 from the game, it's useless.

4.) Stoping Shot is being nerfed for PVP, I suggest a method for us, and everyone else, to heal mind pool. This new bug will give, Yes, I'll say it, Bounty hunter's, to much of an edge over all other professions. If we use our stopping shot on them for a 75% reduction, they still have enough skill points for medic skills to heal that up, so they'll be healing up easily as we try to harm them. Meanwhile, they'll be using eyeshot and we will have no way of healing our mind. It's a win/lose scenerio on the BH side (and Rifleman's side as well I do believe). (note: i don't play PVP unless I'm friends with someone, I won't duel them, but even this is an obvious flaw that someone who doesn't PVP can see)

5.) Our weapons must be fixed. It is rediculous that every server has the DX2 with worse stat's then a scout blaster. Meanwhile, it seems that all other profesions have their profession weapon that are better then any other weapon in the game in stats and damage. This is a HUGE problem that MUST be addressed just as urgently as our defense bug. It is a shame that we are forced to use weapons from marksman instead of our true weapon (not even weapon's, what a shame again) from Pistoleer. It is NOT just a resource issue, PLEASE stop saying that. The Dev's know what the problem is, they have known what the problem is, they have done NOTHING to solve the problem thus far from what I have seen. The biggest problem is weapons that require the multiple unit's of... for instance Power Handler's... the system is not taking into effect ALL of the power handler's into the combine of the weapon, it's only taking the stat's from ONE of them. So instead of combining the stat's of 10 power handler's, you only get the stat's of one which will give you a LOUSY weapon. This has been the KNOWN issue for weeks now, nothing done yet.

6.) Not an issue with us, but for those who wish for holster's (Yes, I would LOVE a holster), this is the wrong section for it though unfortunatly. I think the best place to post for holster's will be on the Tailor's forum since holster's should be a player made item and should be considered a belt with the graphics similar to that of Han's belt in the movies. Yes I would love to see it, no, this is not the forum for it, I honestly do believe that should be a tailored item so it should be an issue brought up with their person in charge