Pistoleer Archive
Thread: 8/12/02 Request For Pistoleer Issues
Disarming shot should not damage someone's gun severely. It should forcibly unequip it. And, personally, I love disarming shot 2 as is, so can we just rename it and keep it the same? 
Now, if multitargetpistolshot does do that medium range dmg, that is fine. It shouldnt be the most powerful. It's advantage is that it hits multiple targets for the cost of one HAM drain.
I agree that speed seems to be broken, which leads to the question, how do we phrase general problems? Who do we talk to about them.
I hate griefing attacks and can't for the life of me figure out why they are in the game, bounty hunters have wound attacks (what purpose does that serve except griefing?) and now we are going to have an equipment destruction attack, it is wrong. Seems that the general consensus is that it should disarm, sounds like a rational idea to me, I have to wonder why any other option would even be considered.
I am also wondering, has anyone done armor tests with disarming shot? I wonder because the double damage vs lairs seems like a very odd side effect. I am wondering if it changes the damage type or disregards some armor under the current system, and if that is how it ends up doing extra damage to lairs. (I know lairs don't show the normal armor reduction in the floating numbers but that doesn't mean it isn't a factor)
I'd like to see some better functioning pistols, unfortunately I think that the game is sitting above thier expected power level, not below so empowering things seems to be out. An equally valid, but far less popular option, would be to make the scout blaster worse. What matters is the relative value, and frankly I am kind of disheartened by the fact that the best weapon I will ever own is 3 sets of certs back on the list.
The double tap and stopping shot are going to need something, the sole benefit of stopping shot was the one shot kill, now it is a 4 shot kill, if you hit the same area each time, since you probably won't it makes it on average an 8 shot kill. With the increased delay those 8 shots take far longer than 10-12 body shots which is just as leathal. This is a serious reduction in the power of these moves (well double tap was kinda worthless anyway). Instead 10 differnet increased damage shots, where I will simply calculate the best damage ratio and use it exclusively, we need special effects, intimidate, dizzy, blind whatever, frankly when I was a brawler I stopped bothering to intimidate it didn't seem to be worth it, but at least there are options, as it stands even if our best moves were better than BS2 we would simply spam bs 3, no tactics, no choices, just the twitching overthe F4 button. Personally I vote for an armor penetrating shot, lower damage multiple,+1 AP. In the end I want more situaltional uses for my specials. A big part of my beef with BH is that they get3 specials all of which seem useful (even though I hate the griefing shot, I could certainly see it's usefulness) I get12, 4 of which I would ever use. If Pistoleer specials gave us versatility I bet the BH complaints would fade pretty fast.
I fully repsect the desire for cosmetic changes, but frankly I think there are bigger issues, heck we are a pretty functional class, as sad as it sounds I wish Jaegan were the commando correspondent, cause he seems like he can get stuff done, and we need it a lot less than they do (not planning on going commando, butmy heart goes out for guys in a totally broken class).
Lets try for a +1 to AR while we are within like 10m. I would love that. But don't bother to flame, because it won't happen anyway.
I thought doubletap was really sweet when I got it. I just use it to pick off small mobs. It does more damage for me than BS2, and seems quicker, so anything with 500 health and below I just knock out with it. I thought it was a nice addition to my portfolio. I am looking forward to fan shot.
Stopping shot seems to be nerfed in PvP. Maybe it should hit the mind. Or maybe give it a +1 AR. OR, it could be a knockdown. OR it could give a dizzy effect. Stopping shot through dizzy. Dunno, just throwing out ideas. Anyways here are my issues.
1) Defense issues. I want my catlike relexes!
2) Defense issues.
*the rest of these arn't in any order*
3) We should have profession specific missions... yes, I mean gunfighter showdowns. Seems doable.
4) More guns with AR +1.
5) Make something of Disarming Shot1 so it isn't just a lair destroyer.
I don't understand how any "removes weapon from opponent for X amount of time" special attack would work balance-wise. So what...I spam this shot so my opponent can never attack me? What's the delay going to be..0.5 seconds? Isn't this why Panic Shot is wicked effective right now?
So, I'm not sure I can suggest that unless someone has a clean suggestions for implentation.
As to doing weapon damage, no, it doesn't excite me much either. And worse, if it were linked to disarming shot 2, I'd say remove disarming altogether as a concept, change disarming shot 2's name, and change disarming shot 1's name (and possibly it's effect).
However, if combat starts lasting a lot longer..and in just a few shots you're able to "disarm" someone, say, a commando that had an acid rifle out...if it takes a few seconds to change weapons, maybe it becomes somewhat effective? Face it, it's a low tier special anyway, I'm not sure it's intended to blow our socks off like body shot 3 and multi-target shot...oh wait
Yes, the griefing aspec of it isn't appealing either, both hitting someone else, and getting hit myself with hit...
I'm not clear on what we're proposing for disarming shots. Maybe we suggest:
1. Rename Disarming Shot 2, Rename Disarming Shot 1, leave effects as-is.
Currently BOTH are effective in their own right. Disarming shot 1 does the most DPS to a lair (below +100 speed) of any special. Even more than fan blast, stopping shot, etc. It's a first tier special, it's not supposed to blow our socks off.
2. Rename Disarming Shot2 and implement Disarming Shot 1 as a weapon damage special
3. Other?
I'm partial to #1, I see merit in leaving things "as is", and just correcting the naming if that's easy.
Jaegen88,
Here is a list of pistoleer concerns that I feel are of primary importance. Lets not cloud the issue of class vs. class balance. It's a hot topic right now, and its also the very last thing the Developers are going to address. So lets get them focused on internal pistoleer matters, and then laterwhen we get our own class bugs worked out, then we can look at balance issues, ie: BH vs Pistoleer, and address them then, when we have a better picture of the situation. Right now we cannot even accurately guage balance issues since there are many abilities and skill mods that are not currently working in our profession.
Lets also avoid even talking about new content, ie: Pistol animations and holsters.Again this is somthing that is usually worked on after the bugs are sorted out with the current content.
ISSUE #1
Disarm Shots: This is the number 1 issue because of several factors. We need some confirmation of what this shot is intended to do. Is Disarm 2 meant to be a ranged Aoe knockdown? If so great! Perhaps we need to rename it, but lets get a confirmation first. I would hate the fact that 6 months down the road some bright developer realizes that Disarm 2 was never meant to be a knockdown and takes it away.
What kind of effect did the developers intend with this shot? Was it supposed to temporarily neutralize your opponents weapon or simply degrade it. If it is meant to degrade an opponents weapon, was this degradation meant to actually make a difference in a fight? Or is it just a griefers tool? As it stands now using disarm 1 doesnt do enough damage to a weapon to make a difference in a fight. It just pisses people off. Since we dont get Disarm II until reaching Master Pistoleer it should be one of our most powerful abilities, and it actually is right now. It's somthing I dont want to lose, but I want to see it renamed or if it must be taken away, I would rather it be now, than 6 months down the road.
ISSUE #2
BodyShot 3: Simply put, it needs to be a balanced progression fromBody Shot 2. Currently it is not. This technique should do one of the following: (a) Do more damage (b) Fire at a faster rate, thereby doing more damage. (c) Cost less Ham. Any of those 3 would work. But the technique in the current state is not often used because it is not much of a scale up from body shot 2.
ISSUE #3
Dodge: With this issue lets start by asking the developers the followingquestions. What is the intent of dodge and how often is it supposed to work. 10% of the time? 30%?Is it dependent on the skill of the opponent? Then when weknow what is in their minds, we can properly evaluate it, and know if it is working properly.
ISSUE # 4
Defensive Bonuses and Resists: Before we can evaluate it, we need to know what exactly the dev's had in mind, ask them what kind of impact these bonuses should play in a fight. Then with this information we can evaluate it properly.
Fastgun
Further update on PB Area 2 being broken: it still is after grande patch.
However, I also got a chance to test out PB Area 1 again. And that still works.
go figure.
Easy,
you mean it's not hitting multiple mobs in the forward arc?
I think disarm1 is fine as a lair destroyer. I use it, which isn't true for all my skills. I can't speak for disarm 2 as I don't have it. It would be funny I think to have disarm1 pop the gun just back to the inventory. Hilarious actually. So many people would have no idea what was going on. And if you spam it, you won't do any damage, but render your opponent useless. Unless of course he wants to come at you with his fists.
Cheese
I posted some followup ideas for Disarm Shot in your 8/13 thread. Any input or ways they could be polished?
Jaegen88 wrote:
I don't understand how any "removes weapon from opponent for X amount of time" special attack would work balance-wise. So what...I spam this shot so my opponent can never attack me? What's the delay going to be..0.5 seconds? Isn't this why Panic Shot is wicked effective right now?
So, I'm not sure I can suggest that unless someone has a clean suggestions for implentation.
Isn't that what is happening with knock down? people are spamming it and the outcome of the battle is determined by who get's the first KD? So KD is then overpowered so we should remove this as well. Fine, let'skeep it like the Dev's want it, let us damaging the person's weapon, if the floating number say's 300 damage, then it's 300 damage towards condition. 4 good shot's and he'll regret ever fighting you, and if he comes back for revenge, just do it again, it's his money, not yours. Is this a better solution to being out of balanced? No, but you seem to like this more then a delay factor?
If I use disarm shot, I want my oponent to lose at LEAST two moves, just like our AIM uses one move, I'd like to see them lose at least 2 moves. This is not overpowered and give's your oponent a better chance of survival then KD would. example to prove my point, I shoot you with disarm, you loose 2 moves, on the first move I hit you with a bleed, second move I can opt for either a BS or a second bleed. third move your oponent is armed again, so you can opt to disarm again, or straight out attack while the bleed does it work. It also works for the oponent, because unlike KD, you can't spam disarm shot. Much like traps (for those who also use scout skills) If you use a snare trap, and toss another at your targetwhile the first trapis still in effect, it won't work. So, you will not be able to disarm the other person while he's still disarmed, you have to wait till he's armed and shooting at you again, give him a fair chance, unlike KD.
Is that a good enough example on how to make it work?
Oh, and after the patch, panic shot sucks, I can get off about 10 to 15 before it works when it use to take from 1 to 3 shots before it works, so much for soloing anymore, this is becoming like EQ now where you need groups in order to progress.
Jaegen, correct, PB Area 2 only hits the targeted baddie, not nearbie baddies.
I know I'm the only one reporting this, but I kind of think I'm the only person trying it, too
1. DX2 should be overall best pistol. Maybe it is. But no one knows cuz of bugs/resources. A lot of people like pistoleer profession, seems they should add in those resources / fix crafting bugs to please the masses
2. Special defenses (KD / Stun etc.) need to work. As well as dodge / ranged & melee defense mods
3. there should be NO way to destroy equipment - that is just greifing. Make disarming shot actually disarm a target.. or, a REALLY easy solution would be to give the target a delay after taking a disarming shot hit... makes sense right? they get "disarmed" so they have to wait 5-10 seconds before they can shoot back
4. ADD MORE PISTOLS! A master pistoleer should be able to use a pistol with at least level 1 armorpiercing and a non energy attack. maybe the DX2 does this, but who knows! need more certifications.. like for the BH pistol. we should get that at master or something
5. Body shot 3 should be a lot better than body shot 2. body shot 2 was a big improvement over body shot 1, so why not make body shot 3much better thanbody shot 2