Pistoleer Archive
Thread: HealthShot 2 vs. StoppingShot vs. TorsoShot a mathematical discussion
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Uthyr
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:47 pm
#1
I'm starting this discussion after reading a couple of posts in this forum recently suggesting that StoppingShot is a better special tospam than HealthShot 2, in spite of the fact that theformer targets random pools. I just worked out the math of these two specials, and I am not convinced that this is true...
First off, I am a Master Pistoleer/Desperado (MP 4/4/4/4, BH 0/0/4/0). I went to check out the excellent "Rem's Guide to Weapon Speed," website, and entered some numbers from one of my pistols into his calculator (please cut-and-paste, watching for the line wrap, as I had trouble getting a hyperlink to work properly here)...
http://www.killyourpc.org/swg/swg_dps.php?weapon_min=92&weapon_max=282&weapon_speed=2.5&pc_speed=129&class=Pistol
...If you look at the table of results, you'll note the follow stats of interest for "damage per second":
StoppingShot - 1402.5 (target HAM pool: Random)
HealthShot 2 - 841.5 (target HAM pool: Health)
TorsoShot - 841.5 (target HAM pool: Health)
I also read on a thread here recently (can't recall who said it) that it's been well established that the ratio of "random" shots for StoppingShot for H:A:M is 3:2:1. This tells me that for every 6 shots fired, on average 3 of them (50%) will target Health, and the other 3 will target another pool. That effectively means that the average damage per second to the Health pool for StoppingShot is 1402.5 x 50% = 701. So we can modify the above results, with respect to Health alone, to the following:
StoppingShot -701 (partial target HAM pool: Health)
HealthShot 2 - 841.5 (full target HAMpool: Health)
TorsoShot - 841.5 (full target HAM pool: Health)
All the other Health-targeting specials (e.g. BodyShots) have much lower dps in my chart results, so I am not considering them for their spamming value (only for their DoT stacking value--see below)...
Now, assuming that HealthShot 1, HealthShot 2, BleedingShot and Torso Shot all stack DoT (bleeds, fire), there is stilldefinitevalue in using some of these lower-damage specials at least once in a combat queue--at least for targets that take a while to kill. It seems to me though that spamming StoppingShot would not be the best way to take down a target, assuming for the sake of argumentthat all his HAMs have equal vulnerability (which, granted, is not always the case due to stimpacks, armor, current stat migration levels, etc).
Here isa spamming macro that I am currently experimenting with for PvE. I do not play PvP much, so this argument may or may not be valid for that other format...
BleedingShot;
TorsoShot;
HealthShot 2;
HealthShot 1
...then manually spamHealthShot2 until the target is dead, repeating the above macro occasionally, for tough-to-kill targets with high HAM.
The 4 shots inmy macro should stack all the available health bleeds (plus additional bleeds), and following up by spamming withHealthShot 2should then continue to target Health with the mostdamaging shot available to me. Spamming TorsoShot should work just as well, from what I calculated.
So, my questions for the group are: (1) Do you see any flaws in my calculations or logic, or anything important that I left out of the analysis? (2) Do you think a different order to my macro shots would be more effective for PvE? (3) Is there any real benefit tospreading out/diluting attacks overmultiple HAM pools, instead of targeting just a single one with a harder pounding? (4) If you read Rem's discussion and look at the table, he demonstrates thatreal pistol speed is capped at 1.0long before reaching Master Pistoleer + Desperado, and it is therefore a waste to fullycomplete theMaster Pistoleer tree if you already have Desperado. Anybody agree or disagree?
Incidentally, I do see one potential use for StoppingShot... If you use it and it happens to target the Mind pool enough to drop it more than Health (not very likely, but it should happen about once every 6 attempts), then you can start to spam EyeShot to finish off the target. This could be more useful against a PvP opponent who is using stimpacks, for example, but I'm not sure it has a use in PvE.
Message Edited by Uthyr on 10-21-2004 08:51 PM
Message Edited by Uthyr on 10-21-2004 09:07 PM
Message Edited by Uthyr on 10-21-2004 09:12 PM
Darth-Kevlar
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:57 pm
#2
1)Well, in mathematical terms, i believe you are right. The praxis in pvp tells another story though. Stopping shot is very usefull on forcing heals and by this way depleting the mind of the opponent. Then if you are lucky enough to land 2 stop shots on your opponents mind it can shape the outcome of a fight.
2)I would start with torso for pve, but it's a bit irrelevant
3)Nope (for pve)
4)You get better defenses and R. Mitigation 3. And the chance to use the de-10. And that can be a decisive argument if you plan to fight jedis
Uthyr
Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:02 pm
#3
To address your very helpful replies, Darth-Kevlar...
1) Yeah, I can definitely see how PvP might be an entirely different story. It seems to me though that if you want to focus on depleting Mind of your target, EyeShot is a better way to go than Stopping Shot (assuming you have the appropriate Bounty Hunter skill). I guess I pretty much wrote thatpost from the perspective of PvE, although any PvP discussion from anybody else would be welcome.
2) Hehe, funny you should recommend that, because before I even read your suggestion (and after I wrote my original post), I had already changed TorsoShot to be my first special. I did that after testing just a single TorsoShot on a creature today and then peacing and watching it do it's work... just awesome.
3) Yeah, that's what I thought.
4) Ah yes, Master Pistoleer isn't just about speed--very good point.
CaixCatab
Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:42 pm
#4
(1) Do you see any flaws in my calculations or logic, or anything important that I left out of the analysis?
Nothing major, but nonetheless: Since no matter what pool you hit with no matter what shot, you will inflict a slight dmg on the other pools. It's not much (I have no idea how much tbh, I'll have to try it or start spamming HS2 again) but it brings the pool targeted DPS of stopping shot a bit closer to that of HS2.
(2) Do you think a different order to my macro shots would be more effective for PvE?
As has been said, start of with torsoshot. The DoT damage on that compared to the bleeds is silly, and it ticks more often (according to my latest round of nightsister hunting).
(3) Is there any real benefit tospreading out/diluting attacks overmultiple HAM pools, instead of targeting just a single one with a harder pounding?
In PvP, the only situation where you'll want to target any other pool other than mind is when your opponent is unbuffed. In that case, two or three stopping shots will be able to take him out. When facing saber block *cough* you'll want the shots that actually go through to count. I'd use stopping shot, or torsoshot, depending on how often I think I'll be able to get through the block (if he's on fire, he's in trouble no matter how much he blocks).
In PvE, it depends largely on what your fighting. You can luck out using stopping shot and during three seconds you'll do almost 2000 (pre-reduction) dmg more with stopping shot and HS2. But the more shots you fire, the closer to the statistical value you'llget. For quenkers, stopping shot. For tougher stuff, HS2.
(4) If you read Rem's discussion and look at the table, he demonstrates thatreal pistol speed is capped at 1.0long before reaching Master Pistoleer + Desperado, and it is therefore a waste to fullycomplete theMaster Pistoleer tree if you already have Desperado. Anybody agree or disagree?
Agree.
The problem is essentially this: 4xxx pistoleer is just dodge. No specials, just dodge. x4xx is just accuracy. It's nice, but with the bonus accuracy of desperado + some citros the branch still get redundant. xx4x is very useful. And the last three, with desperado, you'll cap stopping shot with a 2.9 spd gun with just xxx1. Which also gives you the only useful special that tree has.
Dump the now free skill points in fencer and you'll get higher state defenses, (a lot higher state defenses), higher ranged AND melee defense, aswell as intimidate/warcry. The only thing fencer can't replace is the accuracy. But load up on citros and your good to go.
The problem isn't the master box itself, it's the fact that more than half of the three on the way to master can be made reduntant by using skills from other tree. Which is the reason why I think dual wield shouldn't be a master only thing, because unless it's so good it quickly becomes the only way to fight as a pistoleer, spending the skill points to get to master just isn't worth it. Make those worth it first, THEN make the master box worth getting.
Oh well. I hear they're redoing the speed formula for the CR. Hopefully in a way that makes the extra speed worth it.
Uthyr
Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:12 am
#5
Thanks for the useful commentary, CaixCatab. You pointed out a couple of things I never considered, as as well as a couple that I did but didn't add to my original post. Just a few comments...
Nothing major, but nonetheless: Since no matter what pool you hit with no matter what shot, you will inflict a slight dmg on the other pools. It's not much (I have no idea how much tbh, I'll have to try it or start spamming HS2 again) but it brings the pool targeted DPS of stopping shot a bit closer to that of HS2.
Yeah, that's a good point--I hadn't considered spillage into the other non-targeted pools in my calculations. Still, StoppingShot can't do the targeted pool damage that HealthShot can (for use in PvE, or on non-buffed targets) from what I can determine.
As has been said, start of with torsoshot. The DoT damage on that compared to the bleeds is silly, and it ticks more often (according to my latest round of nightsister hunting).
I agree, based on my test observations yesterday. TorsoShot isone impressive special.
In PvP, the only situation where you'll want to target any other pool other than mind is when your opponent is unbuffed. In that case, two or three stopping shots will be able to take him out. When facing saber block *cough* you'll want the shots that actually go through to count. I'd use stopping shot, or torsoshot, depending on how often I think I'll be able to get through the block (if he's on fire, he's in trouble no matter how much he blocks).
Excellent point--buffed vs. unbuffed targetsiscertainly an important consideration. But for buffed targets, it seems to me that the more powerful approach (looking simply at the statistics), would be to spam EyeShot (perhaps preceeded by a TorsoShot and BleedingShot, or perhaps not), rather than spamming StoppingShot, since StoppingShot so rarely targets Mind (only 1 in every 6 shots). Anybody agree/disagree?
In PvE, it depends largely on what your fighting. You can luck out using stopping shot and during three seconds you'll do almost 2000 (pre-reduction) dmg more with stopping shot and HS2. But the more shots you fire, the closer to the statistical value you'llget. For quenkers, stopping shot. For tougher stuff, HS2.
Another good point. I suppose I'm a statistics man--I like to know where my shots are going to hit (as much as it's possible to know), not to take a chance that they may or may not do what I want them to. I suppose it's analogous to firing an automatic assault rifle in RL... is it better to spray the target up and down hoping that you'll hit something vital, or to aim carefully for the chest with more controlled (but less powerful)bursts? I'm not really sure.
The problem is essentially this: 4xxx pistoleer is just dodge. No specials, just dodge. x4xx is just accuracy. It's nice, but with the bonus accuracy of desperado + some citros the branch still get redundant. xx4x is very useful. And the last three, with desperado, you'll cap stopping shot with a 2.9 spd gun with just xxx1. Which also gives you the only useful special that tree has.
Dump the now free skill points in fencer and you'll get higher state defenses, (a lot higher state defenses), higher ranged AND melee defense, aswell as intimidate/warcry. The only thing fencer can't replace is the accuracy. But load up on citros and your good to go.
Hmmm, you're making me rethink keeping my Master Pistoleer. I sort of wish I hadn't read what you just wrote 
Oh well. I hear they're redoing the speed formula for the CR. Hopefully in a way that makes the extra speed worth it.
Yeah, I'd hate to give up Master Pistoleer, a profession that I love (and am proud to sport the title in spite of all the broken specials, since I really like the ones that do work), only to have our profession become a lot more powerful after the CR (whenever that happens--I imagine it's not high priority for SOE right now with all the bugs they're going to need to fix in JTL).
LordMaxx
Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:03 am
#6
Excellent post...I have always used Healthshot 2 on individual targets for that very fact...some like to use stopping shot, or last ditch because they like to see the big numbers, and occasionally they end up with more health hits then the random 3 for every 6. (This is a PVE perspective)
Well it really is up to the pistoleer what they like better. And I would add that I do not like how we are dependent on 2 other professions to actually get the best shots and to get the best speed.
As for dropping master because dodge and accuracy isnt as important to a desperado. The accuracy does still help somewhat...especially in PVP against Ranged Defense capped fighters. And Dodge is just great...We at least have a great mod for that at master and dodge quite often.
Well it really is up to the pistoleer what they like better. And I would add that I do not like how we are dependent on 2 other professions to actually get the best shots and to get the best speed.
As for dropping master because dodge and accuracy isnt as important to a desperado. The accuracy does still help somewhat...especially in PVP against Ranged Defense capped fighters. And Dodge is just great...We at least have a great mod for that at master and dodge quite often.
Uthyr
Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:31 am
#7
LordMaxx wrote:
Excellent post...I have always used Healthshot 2 on individual targets for that very fact...some like to use stopping shot, or last ditch because they like to see the big numbers, and occasionally they end up with more health hits then the random 3 for every 6. (This is a PVE perspective)
Ah, thank you LordMaxx, for helping me justify to myself that I am not way off base in preferring HealthShot 2 when so many others seem to prefer StoppingShot. As you said, this argument is mainlya PvE issue.
Well it really is up to the pistoleer what they like better.
Well it really is up to the pistoleer what they like better.
Very ture--it's all about what makes for the most fun playing experience. Incidentally, I love watching multiple pools drop simultaneously in large chunks when using StoppingShot. That is a very cool special. I'm just trying to determine which theoretically kills quicker, for the targets I shoot the most.
And I would add that I do not like how we are dependent on 2 other professions to actually get the best shots and to get the best speed.
/agreeShot 2
As for dropping master because dodge and accuracy isnt as important to a desperado. The accuracy does still help somewhat...especially in PVP against Ranged Defense capped fighters. And Dodge is just great...We at least have a great mod for that at master and dodge quite often.
Hehe, thanks for making me feel better about being a MP. I needed that. 
Uthyr
Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:06 pm
#8
Okay, CaixCatab, now you've got me rethinking the benefits of Master Pistoleer again. 
That was an excellent addition you just made to this thread--very useful indeed.
That was an excellent addition you just made to this thread--very useful indeed.I'll be interested to hear from the opposing camp...
Zandergeef
Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:20 pm
#9
It is all about health shot two for me. As a master pistoleer with no BH health shot 2 is a great and my best shot. Sure I will get 12 more ranged speed soon with the village stuff and with a few SEA I could get to speed cap but with just master pistoleer Health shot 2 is what I spam.
I can target the health pool and intimidate the creature and with these skills I can take most things in the game solo. For me at the moment stopping shot is to slow. Sometimes i will throw in a kd and if it lands I throw in a last ditch in hopes of a health shot.
raz1337
Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:11 pm
#10
I thought health shot 1 & 2, mind shot 1 & 2, and action shot 1 & 2 don't stack?
CaixCatab
Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:32 am
#11
Excellent point--buffed vs. unbuffed targetsiscertainly an important consideration. But for buffed targets, it seems to me that the more powerful approach (looking simply at the statistics), would be to spam EyeShot (perhaps preceeded by a TorsoShot and BleedingShot, or perhaps not), rather than spamming StoppingShot, since StoppingShot so rarely targets Mind (only 1 in every 6 shots). Anybody agree/disagree?
If your doing PvP and your opponent is buffed, the general rule is to always go for mind using a pool targeted attack because it's (for most encounters) the unhealable pool.
One of the exceptions, and the one I have the easiest time thinking of hehe, is facing an unbuffed jedi in a 1v1. Chances are, he'll have his stats migrated into his mind, so his health/action will be lowest pools. Stick a torsoshot past the pesky saber block, and keep hitting him with it.
Seeing as some jedi'll also has a mindheal, the main reason for hitting mind in jedi encounters would be to prevent his mates from healing him and forcing him to heal himself.
So yes, PvP = as good as always mind hits, in our case meaning eyeshot.
As for dropping master because dodge and accuracy isnt as important to a desperado. The accuracy does still help somewhat...especially in PVP against Ranged Defense capped fighters.
A MP/Desperado combo has a ranged def of 22. A Pistoleer 0041/Desperado/Fencer 4440 has a ranged def of 86. The MP/Desperado does have RM3 though, which the P/D/F template doesn't. Base accuracy for the MP/D template, not counting the mods for moving and standing, is 155 (I feel I must snipe at *something* here. A rifleman can hit the speedcap more easily than a pistoleer, and they get 170 accuracy? What's our special accuracy increase mod?). The P/D/F template has 115.
My current stash of citros brings that up to, well, 155. Meaning the only difference becomes the accuracy while moving mod, which is what, +30?
And Dodge is just great...We at least have a great mod for that at master and dodge quite often.
A MP/D has 105 dodge. A P/D/F has 100, plus the extra ranged andmelee defense, plus melee mitigation (... I know, I know, it's not working...) plus state defenses...
I agree dodge is a nice mod. But is 4xxx pistoleer worth it when I get an at least comparable dodge out of picking up fencer skills for state/melee&ranged defenses?
And is +30 accuracy while standing/while moving really worth 14 skill points, compared to what you get when you pump the same amount of skill points into fencer?
The only things that speaks for a MP template is ranged mitigation 3 and the DE-10. And neither'll do you much good when your knockdowned because your KD defenses and dizzy and melee and ranged isn't as high...
(It's however worth noting that the MP/D template requires less skill points than the P/D/F version, so itdepends on whether your running around with pistoleer with the sole intent of using pistols for every encounter and dedicate all your skill points to it, or picked it up to complement your droid engineering... If you going light on the SP req's, that's another thing that speaks for Mastering Pistols.)
Uthyr
Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:10 am
#12
My understanding, from what I have read on this forum mnay times(and I haven't tried to confirm this in-game), is that HeathShot 1, HealthShot 2, and BleedingShot all stack. I don't know about the mind and action shots.
Canadianjoo
Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:43 am
#13
bleeding shot is a mind DOT, but personally I lead with a torso shot and a healthshot 1, simply because they stack, after this i start spamming healtshot 2, Gets an uber DOT going without too much sacrifice of damage done. Stopping shot and last ditch do have their uses though, when pvping in large groups, or trying to gain loot permissions over others, sometimes damage other than the speed of the target being eliminated is more important.
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