Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer Issues 9/8/03 Rough Draft- Please comment
All,
I want to get new issues report in place before the devs read the 8/20 one..I'll ask them to use this and hope they do. Anyway, please review and give comments before it's sent off. It's a little long, but it will at least be formatted better when I send it (highlights, etc.).
PISTOLEER ISSUES 9/08/03
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1. Pistoleer Special Abilities Not Working/Useless (all but 1)
2. Defenses are not working/worth the tradeoffs (not effective)
3. DX2 Pistol not performing/AR1 for DX2 is not working
4. Republic Blaster?
5. Fix issues #1-3 and let us know about #4. Please fix this profession!
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Pistoleer Summary from the forum:
“All pistoleer special attacks are essentially useless. Defense does NOT work. The advanced Pistoleer PISTOL, the DX2, is pathetic. We have nothing to offer in PvP.”
Needless to say, pistoleers were crushed overall when Disarming shot 2 had the knockdown removed. It was certainly a crutch, those that were working up to mastery knew it would be worth the climb and those at mastery were less bitter about the remaining special attacks they had that were fairly useless overall. The general consensus on the forums is that pistoleers lack variety, we give up DPS and mind pool attacks, yet we get no relevant defense to offset that, we are still not the “masters” of the pistol, and close examination of our special attacks, has left most everyone laughing or crying, or both. The pistoleer special attacks cannot, from what we have determined, be final versions of what the pistoleer profession will have, since at best they are similar to the marksman pistol special abilities (or worse in many cases) (!) and are for the most part, redundant random HAM attack specials with nothing indicative of what we’d expect in an elite combat profession. Pistoleers have no dizzy, no ranged knockdown, no stun, no intimidate, no blind, no panic attack, no mind pool shot, no action pool shot, no DOT, and no posture change. Our only knockdown is a melee one. We need serious attention, now that you removed the pin holding pistoleers up (reliance on disarming shot 2)
A recent Holocron post showed pistoleers to be popular for novices. Please realize that commando, smuggler, and bounty hunters, all benefit from adding a little pistoleer to their templates. Also consider it’s the starting weapon, blasters have SWG appeal, etc. This should have no bearing on the full pistoleer line to mastery, being made effective, which it currently is not.
When we did some testing and analysis and got player feedback, we put together our notes, and saw that indeed, just about EVERY SINGLE special ability is useless in it’s current form, and that we have nothing to bring to the table in PvP, in any combat support role, no defense is working, and even the pistol we use at pistoleer (DX2) simply does not function well enough to use it except out of necessity for acid damage. We see people mention “well pistoleers have defense”, which is a joke, it’s 5% damage reduction..yet we give up 500% damage bonus for that? Sorry, we have no defense.
We did have the crutch of disarming shot 2 knockdown and stacking knockdowns from pistol melee defense 1, but now that’s gone now, we’re left with nothing, as shown below.
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DETAILED ISSUES:
1. Pistoleer Special Abilities Not Working/Useless
Some test data as reference – should be close enough for comparison
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Damage Delay (DPS) Raw damage/delay ratio
Default Attack 1.00 1.00 1.00
PISTOL MARKSMAN ABILITIES:
Overcharge Shot 1 2.50 2.00 1.25
Overcharge Shot 2 2.50 2.00 1.25
Dive Shot 2.50 1.80 1.39
Roll Shot 2.50 1.50 1.67
Kip Shot 2.50 1.50 1.67
Body Shot 2 2.00 1.75 1.14
PISTOLEER ABILITIES:
LEVEL1
Point Blank Single 2 3.00 1.75 1.71 (basically same as marksman) RANDOM HAM
Disarming Shot 1 2.00 2.30 0.87 (broken) RANDOM HAM?
Pistol Melee Defense 1 2.90 2.30 1.26 Working! RANDOM HAM
LEVEL2
Double Tap 2.80 2.00 1.40 (worse than marksman)RANDOM HAM
LEVEL3
Body Shot 3 2.50 2.40 1.04 (worse than BS2) HEALTH TARGET
Stopping Shot 4.70 4.00 1.18 (worse than overcharge1!) RANDOM HAM
Pistol Melee Defense 2 4.00 2.50 1.60 (broken) RANDOM HAM
LEVEL4
Point Blank Area 2 4.30 3.00 1.43 (broken) RANDOM HAM
Fan Shot 4.00 2.40 1.66 (same as marksman) RANDOM HAM
MASTER PISTOLEER
Disarming Shot 2 2.75 2.50 1.10 (broken) RANDOM HAM?
Multi-target Shot 4.25 3.50 1.21 (broken), RANDOM HAM
10 out of 12 attacks are RANDOM HAM damage attacks. (HS2 is a bleed)
No state effects, same or worse damage than marksman HELP US BE EFFECTIVE AND INTERESTING!! Having a few good RANDOM HAM attacks is great, but this many is redundant.
By "broken", it's either not working or not working as intended (disarming shots), all details are in the body of our issues report.
Worse than, indicates that it’s lower DPS/effect. Pistoleers relied on knockdown to level, the obviously didn't rely on improvements to damage! Why were pistoleer effective at PvE? We could use knockdown repeatedly, and the mob would never attack back. We stacked bleeds, and just kept them knocked down. This has hidden the real problems in this profession!!
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Detailed change issues and suggestions for Pistoleer Special Abilities:
A. Disarming Shot 2 and Disarming Shot 1 – These specials do not “disarm” an opponent, and are useless in their current forms (the descriptions do not match the special effect).
Currently: Disarming shot 1: Does only RANDOM HAM damage, but actually does LESS DAMAGE THAN THE DEFAULT AUTO ATTACK (when you don’t use a special attack), due to the delay. We assume this should be some interesting “trick shot” that is unique to pistoleers and thus needs to be updated. Many pistoleers read “disarming shot” and get excited and choose pistoleers..only to find out it does not work.
Currently: Disarming shot 2: Well, knockdown was removed so this special attack is also now in the useless category. We assume this will be a cone AOE attack version of whatever disarming shot 1 is “supposed” to be, we hope this changed is made very soon since it’s hopefully one of the things that makes the pistoleer unique and effective.
A.SUGGESTIONS: Overall suggestions for the “disarming” effect, both disarming shot 1 and disarming shot 2, with the assumption that disarming shot 2 will be an area of effect cone version of disarming shot 1, or a superior version since it’s achieved at master pistoleer.
These are in no particular order: (These are techniques 1 and master pistoleer specials)
1. Jams/disables the opponents weapon for 10 seconds, usable only once per 30s (opponent gets immunity) They can switch weapons, which makes it less effective than a general “cannot attack for 10s”, and immunity to prevent stacking/continuous “disarm”.
2. Knocks the weapon to inventory where it has to stay there for some amount of time (like #1, just a different effect). Again, immunity would probably be needed. Could have issues with inventory full, etc., possibly making #1 the better choice between those 2.
3. Ranged intimidate effect. Basically “disarming the opponent”, shooting their hand, their weapon, etc., making it harder for them to effectively fight back. Currently intimidate reduces the damage an opponent does for a short about of time with their attack, which if that remains, is a fitting effect for this “trick shot”.
4. Does <temporary> weapon condition damage, that doesn't "destroy the weapon".
So you can directly damage an opponent’s weapon, but it's only temporarily disabled once it reaches 0. After some time (60seconds?) it starts to regenerate quickly back to whatever its current maximum condition is. This could allow damaging an opponent’s weapon, without the griefing aspect of it, since it would not "destroy" the weapon. Alternative is that once it reaches 0, it has to get repaired by a weapon crafter tool, but condition doesn’t drop (it un-jams it)
5. Similar to Panic Shot (smuggler). This would be a single target version and an AOE cone version, with possibly different damage/delay ratings since it’s a pistoleer skill. This would re-use the code.
6. Anything that is unique to pistoleers and provides an advantage/interesting effect beyond random HAM damage, redundant special attacks. Direct damage to a weapon’s condition is NOT popular, as it makes pistoleers the destroyer of weapons, stigma that only seems to hold appeal to griefers. Any other creative change that isn’t just a repetition of the useless specials currently in the trees would probably be well received and appreciated.
B. BODY SHOT 3 (Grips 3) – useless to a pistoleer
Outperformed by the far less expensive, body shot2 that's achieved in the marksman line. It's the only targeted HAM pool special line that pistoleers get, it should be significantly more effective than the marksman pistol special ability. Again, it’s the ONLY targeted pool attack (non random HAM) that pistoleers get, please make this effective and special.
Multiple tests all showed the same results: (+74 pistol speed, 4.0 speed, 17-35 damage CDEF on unarmored, same opponent, using stop watch, 11 shots for delay test, over 50 for damage average:
Example:
Body Shot 2 = 80.4 avg dmg per shot. 1.8s avg delay = 43.8 dmg per second. (marksman pistol skill!)
Body Shot 3 = 97.8 avg dmg per shot 2.5s avg delay = 39.0 dmg per second (Grips 3 pistoleer!)
B. SUGGESTIONS:
We aren’t sure if this was changed in beta due to pistoleer being so popular, or what the reason was. In any case, we suggest an increase in damage modifier, keeping the delay the same, so that it outperforms the far easier to get body shot 2 that is not even part of the pistoleer line. A special effect added would also make this more unique. With no AR2 weaponry and with health damage being easily healed using stim packs, it's important that our only targeted damage shot be effective (even though anyone with novice medic can heal off health/action quite easily in combat). 3.5x damage modifer, and a state effect added to it, or a bleed/DOT/str/con wounds, etc. anything to make it unique. As it currently stands, it’s basically useless, and it’s one of our hallmark special attacks.
C. Multi-target Pistol Shot (master pistoleer) RANDOM HAM DAMAGE broken/useless
Multi-target pistol shot only works sporadically, even after patch. I could not get it to "fire" most of the time I tried to use it. It seems to fire sequentially, rather than in an area of effect. If this can be implemented in such a way that it is more effective than just manual targeting and using fan shot, then it might be effective (it’s not currently). As it currently is, it’s still not functioning all the time, and when it does, it’s slower than just firing using <tab> for next target, and firing <fan shot>. As a mastery level special, it should provide significant benefit over being a novice pistoleer, and given that pistoleer specials are in general redundant, vanilla, and are seriously lacking without any ranged state effects, ranged knockdown, etc., one way to improve them is to have effective AOE attacks that work, such as MTPS.
C. SUGGESTION: Make it attack everyone targeted simultaneously, or make it an AOE cone effect (since the cone AOE code was working at some point..but actually seems to be broken right now too) that has an action cost similar to stopping shot, or only slightly higher, with an intimidate or stun state effect. This should be an effective AOE shot, we’re starting from nothing here, we need to have some variety and effective specials.
I won't say anything more, this is quite complete and interesting but the more important reason why I wn't comment is it is pure waste of time, no SOE crew member is debating with us so why bother ?
jaegen, you make a very solid job but I'm affraid you are wasting your time hardly...
SOE isn't even testing all these changes or they are simply retarded. Novice CH with 1 1 0 0 is simply a way more skilled fighter only with some Marksman skills, I won't even mention BH or Commandos that will throw us against walls without even noticing we were trying to hit them.
I'm even affraid to duel a novice dancer, can you figure that ?
I have to agree with the above poster. SOE could care less and Jaegen, your doing a great job, they just don't care. Don't quit though, we care. =)
I have only 1 comment, I think the DX2 should be bumped to #1, if they fix that we can probably survive a little longer while they get the specials fixed.
Also, maybe it should be mentioned to them how insulting it is that they don't even play the game and make nerf's based on assumptions. It really should stop.
i agree with most things said here... alot of stuff is broken, and needs to be addressed.
we also need a better DX2 make it a worth wile gun to own more damage faster speed. also what about the sr combat pistol that thing is garbage it would be nice to see that improved would be a nice energy gun.
come on DEVs hook us up...
Much better than any correspondent letter I've ever seen 
However, since I tend to be picky...
Making disarm "temporarily" damage a weapon will make it just as useless as now, practically. In the time it takes to "jam" the weapon (unless you mean it takes 2 shots or something, it wasn't clear) you could have already incapped the person. I've never wanted it to be the griefing shot they say it's supposed to be, but you can bet if they made it that it would get changed to something useful quick
Suggestion. New Pistol, cert at Master only. THAT should be the best all around pistol in the game. DX2 is a joke; any pistol gotten at Novice should not be the end all be all of any weapon category. The Scatter and Launcher pistols should not be Novice BH/Commando cert.
IMO all professions should have weapons that cert low, novice or 1 box that are decent, and specialized useful weapons. Then they should have another set of weapons available only at master that are THE weapons people want. Make people make master in at least 1 profession to get a truly master level weapon.
As for or styles? Nobody and I mean NOBODY comes to pistoleer for the styles. It’s a joke. I would even make this our number 1, 2 AND 3 issues. All styles useless, plz fix, or something.
Very very good jaegen
I've dropped master pistoleer for now, (I have 900k in pistol points so getting it back should be easy) Picked up novice medic, (I didn't need that before, SOE has made that a requirement.. thank you very much.. glad every combat profession is a novice medic now)
And I'm in the process of acquiring a pet to tank for me.. another crutch that SOE has basically forced me to take that I didn't want.
Until I see some real improvements, I'll be using other weapons and other combat skills to offset my basic uselessness as a master pistoleer..
Good post, hopefully we can get the attention some of the other broken proffesions are.
The only thing I'd say is that I'd rather see Stopping Shot be ranged knockdown then posture change since most of us will already have Suppression Fire, but still a very good letter than points out all of our weaknesses and gives the proof of them all quite well.
A+
Agreed! Jaegen, you are one of the reasons I am sticking to my guns (pun not intended:smileyvery-happy and waiting out these tought times. Even if the Devs don't read the whole thing, the summary is still worth it. what would be the alternative anyway? Total indifference from us too? I say keep the reports coming Jaegen. I stand firmly behind you and all the beleaguered pistoleers.
I love the idea of master weapons too. All masters fromelite combat professionsshould have a weapon that only they can wield which is superior to all others. This weapon would even have intimidation appeal. When someone pulls it out there should be a palpable sense that this is a Master.
Jaegen,
Exceptional post, and I too find comfort in these dark days with you being our correspondant. One sugguestion though, a lesson learned from our past. My fear is you will put up this well articulated post and the developer response will be, republic blasters are being looked into. I would suggest we highlight the critical problems, specials not working as intended, and defenses completely broken before we worry about less immediate issues. By putting anything ancillary when they're are so many BIG issues at stake might hurt us rather then help. Even the DX2 (imho) can wait for the next round. Disarming shot 1 and 2, and defenses can not.
My fear is if we give them too big of a picture to look at (all defenses and all specials broken) we also run the risk of them throwing up their hands and not doing anything. Perhaps if we concentrate our fury on getting a few specifics fixed (like the T21 and LLC campaigns) we may have more success then if we say fix all these broken specials. Just a suggestion and your time and energy is more then appreciated. Personally I'd like to see:
BS3 made better then Bs2
Disarm 1 & 2 do something
State defenses work
Stopping shot with a dizzy
Multi-target shot work.
well said jaegen!
I agree on everything but listing the republic blaster as a top 5.
Maybe throw something else in there. The devs are lazy and will probley not even read your complete post. Maybe replce it with :
4. Reduce the amount of random HAM attacks for pistoleer specials.