Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Intelligent Comparison
This is a copy and paste from someone else, so dont kill the messanger, just **edit** and read.
It looks like the Pistoleers are whining about their inability to claim that they are "Masters" of Pistol when a Bounty Hunter can pwn them. I think this is extremely short sighted and did a comarative in explanation. I thught I would cut and paiste my report for your benefit.
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When looking at who is the "master of the pistol" we can just look at the pistol specific stats. The special moves are going to be modified in the upcoming patch, particularly knockdown and PvP Damage. Further, effectiveness on special moves is highly variable due to weapon build/quality and the effects of individual stats. Thus, the most solid comparisons are empirical numbers.
So lets take a couple considerations:
1) How many total experience points does it take to be a Master Pistoleer vrs Master Bounty Hunter?
2) For that experience what does each profession get and what are the differences in cost?
3) How many skill points does it take to get each professions skill mods?
4) Given the costs Which profession is more efficient when using a pistol a) lethality b) survivability c) non combat activities
Results:
1) Costs - While the Bounty Hunter has more speed and accuracy than a Master Pistoleer he pays 3.5x for it in skill points and 1.34x in total experience points. In other words the Bounty Hunter pays a great deal more for his Mastery than the Pistoleer. Beyond the price for mastery are the lost opportunity costs which the Bounty Hunter gives up for his lethality rating. Winner - Pistoleer by a 3.5x
2) Lethality - The Bounty Hunter is granted 30 points of lethality aiding bonuses over the Pistoleer. This is 16% more lethality in Mods. Winner - Bounty Hunter by 1.16x
3) Survivability - The Pistoleer is granted 135 points of survivability aiding bonuses over the Bounty Hunter. This is 640% more survivability in Mods. Winner Pistoleer by 6.4x
Conclusion - Pistollers are better as using Pistols because they are more efficient in their use (by reflection of costs to use them) and they are far more likely to survive a fight in which they use Pistols. Perhaps elements of functionality within their mastery need to be addresses (e.g. Does dodge actually work or not) but in no way should they compare themselves disfavorably to the Bounty Hunter. The simple fact is... the Pistoleer and the Bounty Hunter are very different classes that both use Pistols. Each must be played differently. Yes, the Bounty Hunter has more lethality by a slim margin, but he earns that capability at huge expense to his opportunities and his capabilities for survival.
Data to follow:
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Master Pistoleer = 4,571,620 Total Experience Points & 92 Skill Points used
Resulting Mods (Master Pistoleer)
100Accuracy (Lethality)
50speed (Lethality)
7ranged defense (Survivability)
30dodge (Survivability)
16Aiming (Lethality)
30Acc while moving
20Def vrs Stun (Survivability)
20Def vrs Blind (Survivability)
20Def vrs Dizzy (Survivability)
20Def vrs Down (Survivability)
30Def vrs Knockdown (Survivability)
24Speed (Lethality)
13Melee Def (Survivability)
15Accuracy while standing (Lethality)
Total Lethality - 205
Total Survivability - 160
395Total
Experience Points for each Mod 11,573.7 (Exp/Mod total)
Skill Points for each Mod 0.233(SkillPts/Mod total)
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Master Bounty Hunter = 4,108,410 Total Experience Points & 217 Skill Points used
Resulting Mods (Master Bounty Hunter)
132Accuracy (Lethality)
85speed (Lethality)
23ranged defense (Survivability)
0dodge
0Aiming
0Acc while moving
0Def vrs Stun
0Def vrs Blind
0Def vrs Dizzy
0Def vrs Down
0Def vrs Knockdown
0Speed
2Melee Def (Survivability)
0Accuracy while standing
22General Ranged Aim (Lethality)
Total Lethality - 239
Total Survivability - 25
264Total
Experience Points for each Mod 15,562.1 (Exp/Mod total)
Skill Points for each Mod 0.822(SkillPts/Mod total)
There is yourproof that BH is indeed, VERY overpowered (lol)
~Do not cross a man, with nothing left to lose.
~Honor until death - No fear.
Ex Bounty-Hunter 
Spouting off numbers doesn't make a comparison intelligent when the numbers themselves are kind of meaningless 
Pistol accuracy - how often have you missed something since you got pistol specialist in the marksman tree?
Pistol speed - with a slice and a 33% powerup you can get a well made pistol to 1.2 speed to start with. If attacks are capped at 1 per second, which I've heard tell of, you only need +20 pistol speed and you're golden. Higher numbers just mean you can use a weaker weapon the same as you use a better one.
What does matter in a very concrete manner is special attacks and certifications. And that's where BH's have a serious advantage, even if the broken Pistoleer specials are fixed.
BobaF377 wrote:
...While the Bounty Hunter has more speed and accuracy than a Master Pistoleer he pays 3.5x for it in skill points and 1.34x in total experience points...
...Master Pistoleer = 4,571,620 Total Experience Points
...Master Bounty Hunter = 4,108,410 Total Experience Points
I'm still trying to figure out this new math 
There's alot of other parts to dissect.Most of your suvivabilitymods are either bugged or just designed to be useless. So I'm not sure what that 6.4-fold boost does.
Beyond that at a more basic level, if you want to measure BH pistol ability vs Pistoleer Pistol ability it may be more appropriate to ignore xp of the rifle and carbine lines of BH since they have no bearing on pistol skills and only serve to artifically boost the requirements of the BH xp in your equations. Ignoring the master block itself is a problem then, but comparing a pistol specialist BH to a pistoleer is more appropriate.
In the end this isn't going to change anyone's minds. Hard Core pistoleers want to be the masters of their weapon bar none, to them BHs are seen as a jack of all trades, master of none. Hard Core bounty hunters want to be the unchallanged masters of combat since they have invested 217 points in becoming a master of their profession. Your combinations of the numbers are arbitrary enough that both will still feel justified in their position.
Pistol accuracy - how often have you missed something since you got pistol specialist in the marksman tree?
Pistol speed - with a slice and a 33% powerup you can get a well made pistol to 1.2 speed to start with. If attacks are capped at 1 per second, which I've heard tell of, you only need +20 pistol speed and you're golden. Higher numbers just mean you can use a weaker weapon the same as you use a better one.
Theseare EXACTLY the two areas that the most vocal pistoleers use when they say bounty hunters shouldnt be better with a pistol. Finally someone sees futility of that argument.
Considering that the offense bonuses between the two professions really are miniscule and 'wash out' when applied to actual gameplay, the main difference is going to be in the other aspects. And - at least for right now - since the pistoleerdefense bonuses don't work and the BH specials and scatter pistols do - the BH is dramatically stronger.
A lot of the balance of the Pistoleer profession is effectively unknown, and won't be known until the defense mods have an effect. If they're intended to have no effect... then the BH is the clear winner of all advanced combat classes purely on the strength of their weapon specials.
You can have fun in soooo many ways, all we have is killing. Thats all! WE kill people and animals all day, thats what we do, thats ALL we can do. So we are proficiant in our profession, if we werent it would be a dead end tree then we cancel our accounts. You have enough skills to go be a master crafter of some sort or master doctor.You can go craft if you feel like it, or heal someone. We are stuck doing one thing, KILLING. Someone go to the Rifleman forum. They are some real warriors over there. Cry baby cry. BH is getting another bump up on the power ladder. Deal with it. Pistoleers must have a prereq of being 13 year old school girls. Cry nerf, cry to your momies, cry to the devs, your whining has got KD nerfed for all who have it. Have any of you fought anything but gnorts? Perhaps you all prefer playing solo? I dont know the reason why you want everything nerfed. First it was CH, now its BH. So you want every toon in the game average or what?
Ochadd
Bounty Hunter
K for one. Defence mods are broke. for 2 4,571,620 experience in JUST pistols, 3rd you neglected to post special attacks. Most of the pistoleer special attacks are broke. Bounty Hunter pitol special attacks encompase almost all of the pistoleer attacks, And it DOES encompas all of the special attacks used on a regular basis. 4th weapons You neglected that also. Bounty hunters recieve the best pistol, although the dx2 isn't a bad pistol, it is a cold shadow compared to the scatter pistol. Now on to other lil oversights. Bounty hunters get a *ranged* knockdown in their first block of the carbine tree. Pistoleers dont' get one til master, and technically we aren't supposed to have one it seems, and then there is eye shot. Tell me exactly why a bounty hunter that spends like 1/3rd the time and experience in using pistols has an Eye shot and the specialist doesn't?
Conclusion Half of the Truth is still a lie. You can't have an "Intelligent Comparison" by leaving crap I just listed out. The fact that the defenses are broke at the moment Totally negates your lil Lethal/survivalbilty numbers. In fact it favors pistoleers. the bounty hunter comes out on top with higher "Lethality" numbers, and we are stuck even in defense. There's your intelligent comparison. Like i posted b4 read your strengths b4 you start complaining about your weaknesses.
Steenky, does that mean you understand my point about the power differential between the BH pistol specials and scatter pistol cert, and the Pistoleer specials and DX2 cert?
Considering that the offense bonuses between the two professions really are miniscule and 'wash out' when applied to actual gameplay, the main difference is going to be in the other aspects. And - at least for right now - since the pistoleerdefense bonuses don't work and the BH specials and scatter pistols do - the BH is dramatically stronger.
A lot of the balance of the Pistoleer profession is effectively unknown, and won't be known until the defense mods have an effect. If they're intended to have no effect... then the BH is the clear winner of all advanced combat classes purely on the strength of their weapon specials.
This is probably the most rational and logical complaint I've seen from a pistoleer yet (NOT sarcasm). I can't find one point in what you've said that I disagree. I, being a pistoleer and no longer BH, hope they implement the defenses in such a way that it can actually be felt when playing. I have no problem, however, with a bounty hunter having some nice specials and certs for scatter. The DX2 seems like crap compared to it mostly because the resources currently allow for a better made scatter than DX2.
In order to be better at combat (with a pistol in this case) I need to:
1) Become aRifle Specialist - so that i can fully understand long ranged shooting and the art and craft of long bore barrels and the strangths and weaknessesinvolved. I must learn the trade of rifle. I may never use a rifle again, but I have the knowledge from Tuskan Rifles to Jawa Ion Cannons. And pay for the training or learn from a master.
2) Become a Carbine Specialist - To fully understand thecomplexities of a machine gun and medium ranged tactics. I have to endure the harshness of recoil and become expert at the use and application. And pay for the training or learn from a master.
3) Become an Expert in Pistol fundamentals - learning my trade through the use of the grip and stance.
4) Become an Expert in Ranged Combat through thousands of hours of killing with whichever weapon is appropriate. I must learn through experience how ranged combat is performed and feel the pain of error through action. and pay for the training or learn from a master
5)I must become a MasterMarksman and raise appretices, learning to teach andcommunicatemy knowledge gained through hard work.Giving my knowledge and training away... or charging fee's as I see fit.
6) Become an Expert twice over in the Outdoors. Learn to kill. At the earliest stages this requires me to kill and harvest the fruit of beasts and animals. Killing an animal is easier than killing a man... but one must learn to kill and loot. One must be able to run like the wind and hide from prey, no matter who or what they are.
7) Become an Expert Trapper - To become a powerful combatant one must learn the functions of complex traps and their use on creatures. One must find the resources to make thrown weapons to better understand the winds influence and the pacing in simple phases. The componanats of a trap and it's explosives are primary to weapon use on a grander scale.
8) Become aExpert OutDoorsman -To harden my weak body into a fighting machine I must spenda portion of my live in the outdoors making my own way and healing myself through the food Iforage for myself. Many days spent outside the cities and alone on the frontierteach me the ways of the wind and the earth. I am knowledgable in practical physics of my Galaxy.
9) Become a Master Scout and proove my learned status by teaching others.
Thenand only then can I become a Bounty Hunter. Plying my trade in the collection of humanoids for a fee. I have the funadental knowledge of all firearms and the effects of elements to use as my tools. After many thousands of hours with my pistol, I have many advantages over a pistoleer who did none of these but the fundamentals of pistol. and I'm just a novice.
"Conclusion Half of the Truth is still a lie."
HEY! GOOD POINT!
I guess your right, we should nerf Bounty Hunters after all.