Pistoleer Archive

Oh yea thats right, I almost forgot how that SCOUTING does so much for your ability to shoot. Your ability to make a tent is worthless and your arguments are hollow. And why dont you re-read this,

"Pistoleer Masters have gained about 3.8 million pistol experience to gain master and nearly 4x the skill points used in comparison to Bounty Hunter. "

In that sentence I was referring to PISTOL portion only. We all know that BH's are required to fill their tree with scouting and the worthless marksman tree.

I have tried to stay out of this and not argue at all about it, but I guess I will toss my 2 creds in at this point...

Ahem....

Keep these numbers in mind -

Total XP spent to be a BH with just the master pistoleer tree, nothing else. just for that = 1,673,790

Skill left over = 76 - Much of that XP is a combo of scout/trap/combat/etc. I don't have the number for it, but it looks to be that maybe 1/4 of that is pistol XP. They still have 76 left over....

Total XP spent on Master Pistoleer, nothing else, just master pistoleer. = 4,784,790 (see that bounty hunters, do you see that? do the math, 2.86 TIMES the xp you put in.)

Before I tell you the skill points left over, just for pistoleer, let me restate this again. 2.86 (real close to 3 if you look at it, wouldn't you say). Again 2.86 times the XP that a BH has put into their pistol tree. And I am being generous and including all of their xp, not just their pistol xp, it must be close to 5 or 6 times the amount of PURE PISTOL XP that they have put into it.

I am not a master pistoleer. I won't be a master by the weekend either. I hope that maybe in a month I will be close. I can't grind 18 hours a day. But I do see the numbers. And the numbers tell me that I could be a great pistoleer in 1/3 the time by going bounty hunter. Scout XP is easy, weapon XP is easy too, but not in that quantity. And by the way, we also have to put combat XP into one of our trees.

Who here has grinded for combat XP. Don't be shy, show your hands...

That is what I though. Not much fun was it, pretty hard to get eh'?

Okay. My pure pistoleer has 110 skill points left. Enough for another master. Squad leader maybe, Medic, entertainer even. Lots of options. BUT THINK OF THE TIME. My god over 4million XP, a good chunk of it combat? And your telling me that a BH should be better because of skill points? LOOK AT THE XP. LOOK AT IT REAL HARD. No one else has so far. Not that I have seen anyway, pistoleer or BH.

If I have worked 4 times as hard as you, for 4 times as long, should you be just as good as me?

Okay feel free to flame now and point out all my shorcomings. But please check this page to build your future templates. http://swg.allakhazam.com/db/charbuild.htmlIt tells you all you need to know about XP and skill points.

One more aside...

Lord Junior - I like your idea. I think that would go a long way to correct this mess. Give us an uber pistol (like the scatter) at master that only we can use. The only other option I see is that the XP cost for master pistoleer should be brought more in line with the BH pistol tree (1.5 to 2 million) and all stats and skill point costs left the same. If we are going to be "just as good, maybe slightly more defensive" we should pay "just as much, maybe slightly more". Not 3 times as much. This would appease me in that I could be master in the same amount of time as someone who chose BH.

Or we could just nerf the bejesus out of Bounty Hunters. =P ( I really hope they can take a joke.)

---

BobaF377 wrote:

Pistoleer takes 4x the skill to master as BH.. Umm.. No.

Master Pistoleer = 98 points

Master Bounty Hunter = 217 points

Think again

---

LordJunior is talking about skill points specifically relating to pistol in the advanced profession trees, so he is 100% correct. He's not talking about skill points just to get to the novice profession. The difference is:

Pistoleer:

Pistol Tactics I-IV (14 skill points)

Pistol Marksmanship I-IV (14 skill points)

Pistol Stances and Grips I-IV (14 skill points)

Pistol Special Abilities I-IV (14 skill points)

Bounty Hunter:

Bounty Pistol Specialization I-IV (14 skill points)

14 * 4 = 56 skill points for Pistoleer pistol training vs.

14 skill points for Bounty Hunter pistol training

Okay. My pure pistoleer has 110 skill points left. Enough for another master. Squad leader maybe, Medic, entertainer even. Lots of options. BUT THINK OF THE TIME. My god over 4million XP, a good chunk of it combat? And your telling me that a BH should be better because of skill points? LOOK AT THE XP. LOOK AT IT REAL HARD. No one else has so far. Not that I have seen anyway, pistoleer or BH.

If I have worked 4 times as hard as you, for 4 times as long, should you be just as good as me?

I wish there was just one thread about this whole thing but as it stands theres about 50 saying the same thing. Don'tFOR A SECOND think that your 4 million pistol exp is EVEN CLOSE to the 34000 exp needed in investigation. Since you are using master pistoleer I will use master BH. In one hour I could reasonably make 280 exp in investigation. In that SAME TIME I am CURRENTLY averaging at least 80k in pistol. This is an average over the last 4 daysof TOTAL time played not just when at a lair. Don't have the energy to type it again so here:

1) investigation - You raise this by doing BH missions. For each 100 credits you get 1 exp. The missions are based on the most powerful weapon you have equiped. I was doing them while equiping a pistol at BH pistol 4. I would get missions paying 7k which is more than a basic novice would get (3k). Each mission would take at MINIMUM 15 minutes to do. So if doing nothing else I could do 4 missions an hour (280 exp max potential). This is of course assuming that I had no deaths (which I never did anyway) and that the Mark wasnt just a white dot that couldnt be attacked (5 times this happened). To get investigations 4 takes 34k exp. Thats 121 hours of nonstop missions. To put that in perspective as a pistoleer since This past weekend I've averaged at minimum 80k exp an hour...thats 9,680,000 pistol experience in the same time as it would take to max 1 bounty hunter tree. Since only 3 trees in pistoleer use pistol experience I could master pistoleer, drop it completely, and master it again in the same amount of time as reaching investigation 4.

I will agree to that, you guys can have that pistol. And in my oppinion, you deserve it, but only to MASTER pistoleers. You guys should also have your defense skills fixed, as well as some of your other skills. But don't go crying about over powered. My torso shot does about 600-700 dmg on my scatter, where stopping shot can do 1k-1.1k dmg with the scatter (be it, the number could be smaller with another pistol). You even have a pistol knockdown, albeit you have to be right next to the person. Our knockdown is with a freakin' carbine. Yes, torso shot can do massive wounds, especially if you get more than one shot off. But to me, that is where bounty hunters should have the advantage, to cause massive damage with weapons. You shuold have much better defense from someone firing on you with a pistol. Meaning, when a bounty hunter uses torso or mind shot on you, you reduce the damage and the effects of the shot greatly, say about 60% (will cause about 350 dmg on you). After all, that forces the bounty hunter to use the carbine or the awesomeness of the LLC (note sarcasm). And when bounty hunters use their carbine attacks on you, you should be helpless against them, afterall you were trained with pistols, not carbines. Again, the bounty hunter should not have defensive skills or buffs against any weapon class. The only defense a bounty hunter really needs (and should only have) is armor, and last I check armor is the same for everyone (well, with stat migration it can be).

Akag (starsider)
Expert Bounty Hunter

One last thing, if you've noticed I've posted a bunch of times the last hour and wonder "how does he average so much experience when hes always in the forums?" its quite simple. I have a macro that I press when targetting a Baz Nitch and it pistol whips every 4 seconds. In 2 minutes of web browsing I come back to the screen and find a dead Baz. In an hour I got 80-100k experience all while trolling and respondingto threads. Rinse and repeat. Thats some pretty hard experience to get as a pistoleer huh?

This is the argument Bounty Hunters say that they spend more skill points yada yada and they can't master a 2nd elite profession. When in fact you haven't mastered one elite profession. you have mastered 2 beginning professions, and one hybrid profession. A master pistoleer has done just that Mastered one elite profession. So shouldn't he/she have every right to master another elite profession or part of a hybrid profession? R you implying that bounty hunters are the only people that should be allowed to master more than one profession? Pistoleers are upset because of how close bounty hunters are in comparison to their master skill when a bounty hunter spends 1/3rd if that of the time using a pistol. It has been posted that pistoleers use almost 4x as many skill points in JUST pistols. Bounty hunters have no argument about spending skill points and that must mean that they are granted a better combat ability. None of your scouting skills even count towards combat.. except the to hit creature bonus.

I like this idea. As a Pistoleer, I would love to have an armor piercing weapon. And I agree it should be given only at master level.

And frankly I'm pretty sick of the whole BH vs Pistoleer thing. I don't think we can really know how a Pistoleer would fare against a BH while parts of both professions do not work properly, most notably, the defense skill mods.

Shuffle, thats a really bad comparisson and I'll tell you why.

First, your comparing a Master Pistoleer vs a Bounty hunter with only one branch trained up (Pistol) If anyone out there thinks that a Bounty hunter with just pistol line alone and nothing else is any match for a Master Pistoleer they need to have their head examined. They obviously don't realize how strong a Pistoleer gets at Master Level. So.. in this comparrison the BH is weaker, out more skill points, but used less exp to get there. Could be argued thats a fair trade off tho I bet almost anyone would take the extra exp cost and take the skill points back.

Now, if you want to compare a bounty hunter when they are stronger then the Pistoleer (very debateable at that) Then you'd have to take a Master BH or at least a BH with Carbine and Pistol trained up.. but lets take Master BH.. right now its hard to say which is really stronger, Master Pistoleers can easily one shot people and have multiple knockdowns. Their only disadvantage here is no direct attack to the mind pool. (stopping shot can hit it, but its random so not reliable in that sense) So, patch coming, knock downs getting nerfed in terms of cost to use. So lets say knockdowns are no longer a real issue. Still leaves Bounty Hunters with only one advantage over the Pistoleers, a direct mind attack.

So now you have one class thats spent a fraction of their skill points and can easily pick up another to increase their power greatly, and you have the other which has almost no points left, enough to pick up a few medic skills and thats it, both having spent close to the same amount of exp, but not taking into account time it takes to get different skills. Investigation easily takes the cake there and Master BH is super hard to get compared to Master Pistoleer. So ultimately the Master BH has worked harder to get to be on basically the same level as Master Pistoleer and if anything has one real advantage.. one advantage that may or may not even make a difference at the cost of a one or two more professions they could of taken up. Anyone else see a problem here?

Now say a Pistoleer can still go and become a Master CH, get a few nasty pets, pick up medic for some really good heals, and still have the same amount of points left over the bounty hunter has just mastering their own profession and nothing else. Now I cant imagine anyone in their right mind still believing after all that, the Bounty Hunter is still more powerful, in fact they'd be hard pressed to come even close to beating an oppenent like that. And mind you, at this point the BH still can't even heal themself!

Point is here folks, for the time invested and skill points used, Bounty Hunters are not in good shape and if anything as definately underpowered. Once LLC is fixed.. Power increased for it ect.. this might change.

Now I know some idiot is going to come post how the BH's have higher accuracy and speed then the Pistoleers unless I address that. Look, your wrong, plain and simple. People that say this forget 2 things. The bonus to accuracy while standing Pistoleers get, and the bonus to accuracy while moving they get. The fact is the Pistoleer is as accurate or more accurate then the BH is, unless their kneeling or prone, which.. if any Pistol user, BH or Pistoleer is doing either of those in a fight they got bigger issues here. And the tiny difference in speed isn't even enough to make more then a what.. 0.1 difference if that?

The complaining by both sides is getting really old, neither class needs any nerfing if you ask me. Pistoleers need to get their defenses working right, BH's need the LLC to work and have a few other things fixed and both will be right as they should. Pistoleers that think they should be better then a BH with just Pistoleer profession without something to support it really need to take a step back and think about it, but for gods sake.. on both sides, lets stop the nerf crying huh?

Colt, I never cried overpowered. As a matter of fact I said "about the same".

Steenky, Steenky, Steenky... Does investigation skill do you any good in the BH pistol tree? I know the scout and 1/2 the marksman tree don't. But I generously included them since YOU HAVE TO HAVE THEM TO GET YOUR PISTOL SKILLS. Let me ask you one more time, do you need investigation to be good at pistol. Yes you do get some bonuses at master. real good ones too, ranged defense +7, I thought ranged defense was what made pistoleers balanced against BH. Oh well. Everyone gets a little I suppose. If you do choose to go master BH that is quite a battle for XP I suppose, but I never cried out for a nerf.

Steenky, Steenky, Steenky part 2....

Just when you had me feeling sorry for you, you come back with an admission of unattended macroing. Didn't they ban people for that back in my UO days. Most of us can't grind XP like that even. Your macroing requires you to at least check back once in awhile. I don't get to sit at home and play on the PC all day. So yeah, that is some pretty hard XP for a pistoleer.

Steenky, Steenky, Steenky... Does investigation skill do you any good in the BH pistol tree? I know the scout and 1/2 the marksman tree don't. But I generously included them since YOU HAVE TO HAVE THEM TO GET YOUR PISTOL SKILLS.

This was in reference to someone else saying they could get Master BH faster than Master Pistoleer which is just plain ludicrous. Another thing to consider, that 34000 investigation exp? It breaks down in to at LEAST 486 missions. Each mission yeilds 4.5k of weapon exp. If you were to use just your pistolthats 2,185,695 of pistol exp, which along with 128,569 combat exp just disappear into nothingness.

Steenky, Steenky, Steenky part 2....

Just when you had me feeling sorry for you, you come back with an admission of unattended macroing. Didn't they ban people for that back in my UO days. Most of us can't grind XP like that even. Your macroing requires you to at least check back once in awhile. I don't get to sit at home and play on the PC all day. So yeah, that is some pretty hard XP for a pistoleer.

All you need is a Baz Nitch lair (or any other un pack animanl), set up a recurvise macro with unarmed defense, target one and go to town. Since I KNOW pistol whip is the one skill that all novices work to get, don't tell ME most of "us" can't grind like that. And just so theres no confusion my web page is small enough that I can keep an eye on my health bars and listen if I get hit from a lag spike. I'm using what the profession has given me instead of bitching about how I'm short changed by being a pistoleer.

Raven - I never cried nerf. My complaint is only regarding pistol proficency. For the amount of XP spent on Pistols for the pistoleer, they should never have to fear a BH wielding a pistol. UNLESS they got their back turned (See, those scout skills really would mean something in combat if this was real life).

I do see how the comparison is bad if you take into account the whole BH tree. I haven't tried getting investigation skills, and I imagine it isn't fun as Steenky pointed out. At this point I am seeing people just running up the pistol tree of BH and getting it very quickly. Those folks just roll right over someone working on the pistoleer trees.

I had waited a long time to say anything about this, and now I wish I hadn't said anything again. I was just sick of biting my tounge when the amount of xp spent on just the pistol portions are so out of whack. I never cried nerf (unless you count that bejesus statement, and if you count that, please learn to read thouroughly.) nor would I.

I suspect with the patches coming that the pistoleer is going to get worse, only because things that it has going for it that are crazy go nuts are getting nerfed to hell, with good reason mind you. But the BH's ability to be COMPARABLE to a pistoleer (that does not include investigation to get to master, let me reiterate COMPAREABLE) is still out of line in regards to XP spent.

The issue should not be BH vs. Pistoleers and us crying nerf to each other. It should be us as players vs. SOE demanding a little fair play. Again all this may be moot when lightning cannons and Defensive stats are worked out. On my server (Radiant) I am sure that both BH's and Pistoleers have a right to be really freaking pissed off, you cant get a good Lightning Cannon or a DX2 because the resources are crap. We have had one resource shift since go time. One. That isn't your fault Raven, nor yours Steenky, and it ain't mine either.

If you still feel I am in error, well, sorry about that.