Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Rifleman faster then pistoleer???
Blankgrun wrote:
And as for the previous, I have to disagree completely. A T21, as I said before is a light REPEATING blaster. Its the SW equivilant of the US Military's M60 machine gun. Its an infantry support weapon. Its supposed to have an insane firing rate when wielded properly (A Master rifleman is necessary for this since its nearly impossible for someone untrained to fire an M60 in real life without a bipod or other reinforcement,drawing a nice parallel with SW)
I don't think comparing weapons to their "real life counterparts" is very useful. This game does not correspond to our reality at all. We're firing lasers, not metal bullets. And none of the combat mechanics "make sense" based on our reality. I shoot a snake in the leg? What the heck! 
The bottom line is that the T21 has a very slow speed rating, and other weapons have a much faster speed rating, but the borked speed equation makes weapon speed irrelevent at high levels. This same dynamic shows up with melee weapons.It's a problem with the speed equation itself, and it's pretty much an undisputed problem. The only question at this point is how to properly fix the speed equation, so fixingit doesn't break other things in the process.
Aanarion wrote:
Ok man...check out the topic....rifleman faster than pistoleer.So why are you talking about all this other **edit**. Pistols are supposed to be faster than rifles...period! Just because it is harder to level rifle doesnt mean they should shoot faster than a pistol...when speed is the pistoleers advantage. A master pistoleer with a dx2 that is around 2 speed should shoot faster than a master rifleman with a rifle that is around 4 speed. That is simple logic. But the way the speed equation is that is not the case....pistoleers only get +74 to pistol speed while rifleman get +90ish to riflespeed.Lets just hope this whole change with speed caps is implemented soon so that we can see balance.With your theory bounty hunters should be in god mode since they have the hardest time leveling....investigation is a bitch and everyone knows that.
Rifleman can fire AS FAST at pistoleer. 1s is the limit, it can't go any lower than that. And it is ONLY for master rifleman that they even get close to the 1s limit, until then the speed modifiers are no where near as effective.And where do you get the 4s for the speed of a rifle. Sure, we have some that fast, but Pistoleers also have pistols down to 1.3 or lower. For most of my weapons, ~6s is about right. Most of my weapons are around this range, Pre-sliced and with no powerups. With a 2.5 delay special attack, (2s/74 and 6s/90) both are close in final attack speed, 1.3s (P) and 1.5s (R). (I do wonder how they came up with the speed values for the 3 ranged in this current system. 74-60-90. ????)
Currently there aremore important things that needed to be fixed before they look at how speed effects the different professions. RIght now, Riflemen and pistoleers are semi-balanced OVERALL, Class vs Class, not equal exp vs equal exp. From novice to master, pistol has the advantage that shrinks as they both approach master. Once they hit master, it reverses and rifle does hold most of the advantages, but still retains a single important disadvantage. Mind costs. These are unhealable, AND the increased speed increases the disadvantage.
The devs are already starting to balance us, but speed will probably be the last thing balanced. Here is 2 things which are coming or should have already been here.
- HAM system. The TC changes justequalized the differences between mind and action/health as a weapon HAM cost. Your now in the same boat as us riflemen. And before you say this is a big advantage for us riflemen, This change creates a good chance that Mind healing will be added back into stims, Zarlor the doctorcorespondant plans to push for it. (The main reason it was removed was HAM costs being completely healable, not to make mind so special or create an unhealable ATTACKABLE pool. It would require more changes so it does not become a major problem in combat, but there are several ways the combat side can be handled.
- AP - Your DX2 is not broken. The WS corespondant found out the devs removedthe extra damage that higher AP weapons give. They told him that AP will now be usefull in overcoming resists. Here is the formula they gave him: Actual resistance = Stated resistance / ((ap-AR) * 2). Here is how a t-21 would work going against a 80% composite helm. 80%/((3-1) *2) = 80%/4 = 20% reduction instead of 80%, NO extra damage for the higher AP. The damage is still in, but this is a bug, it should not be doing extra damage. No one bugged it because everyone thought the 0%vuln was the bug.
The HAM system changes are definately needed before the speed. If they can get mind healing back in, so much the better. Oh, and forget 3 second speed limits. 3 seconds would need for us to go to 1 shot killsto keep dps equal. 2 Seconds it much more likely. It actually fits nicely with the new ham system and currentHAM costs for us riflemen (same for the meleeHAMway-back-when before they increased the mulipliers insanely).
--Rorrimot
There's really no point arguing over which ranged combat class is best. They will be releasing a new combat system soon that will fix the combat speed disparity between all the game's combat classes.
Also, please bear in mind that there is more than just speed and damage to account for. Can a rifleman run around like a headless chicken and still land 90% of his shots? (If they can, **edit**? 
) Can a rifleman fire specials without having to buff/eat ? I know we require large Action pools and high Stamina / speed, but have you seen how fast a carbineer's pools empty?
Patience....
econd, your specials draw from the wonderful, stim-affected, action pool. That gives you the wonderful option of staying out in the field as long as your ability to receive stims is there. Rifleman don't get that option. When they run out of Mind, thats all they wrote. That healing ability also allows pistoleers to wear full, heavy armor without fear of running their HAM bar into the ground with no means of recovery.
A couple points I have to make .....
- The highest pistol AP is 1.....While riflemen normally use an AP2+ weapon (the t21 or the laser)....This is a huge assest, especially in high-end areas where alot of creatures have medium+ armor. Against lower lvl mobs it is great too because on average it gives 25-50% higher DPS...
- There is no longer and 2.5 Meelee damage increase....It was taken out, riflemen no longer take more damage...
So they are faster, hit for more, have higher AP,have more standard defense *and* can hit the mind pool.......
Pistoleers have more state defenses which are nice......
However, there is one thing that riflemen can always point too,........Mind drain....Thier specials take from mind.......(I know BoH+Rysh=no mind drain hehe)
However, I have to ask this....In the next combat publish all HAM drain on specials will be un-healable....Sooooooo what disadvantage will riflemen have then?
And in response to a later question in the thread....a machine gun IS a different class of weapon from a rifle in RL...
Not that it has any relevance here. Just answering questions.
Espo99 wrote:
After reading all of this crap...I wanted to give you an account of a recent hunting experience.
You see, my best friend in the game is a Master Rifleman. He does not have Master Marksman. He's got a "normal" T21 that he uses. It's not pre-nerf and I think it may be speed spliced, but the speed is still high compared to any pistol.
I am a Master Gunfighter and Master Marksman...I even have another +5 pistol speed from various attachments. During the hunt I was using a pre-nerf DX2, stats are like 121-198 damage and like 2.3 speed or something...anyways, you get the idea.
Neither of us are using any powerups...
So, we attack some pickets...the mission level 35 ones. These guys even have a higher resist to energy than they do to acid, so you'd think that acid would deal more damage. My buddy does more DPS than I do. Here is the kicker: he is NOT USING ANY SPECIALS and I am SPAMMING stopping shot. Any shot combo I try and he was still out-damaging me. Body Shot 2, Body Shot 3...Fan Shot...I AM FULLY BUFFED AND SPAMMING SPECIALS and he is standing back firing away USING ONLY DEFAULT ATTACK and is crushing me in DPS. I also tried different pistols includig a pre-nerf FWG5 and a Republic Blaster.
Can someone explain how this is fair? I am using any and all specials that I've got and can't match his DPS. Just forget about it if he used is specials...I might get 3 shots in before the critter falls. I have to beg him to let me get some pistol xp (grinding up dirty fighting now)!
Just tought that I would present this example as to why a Master Rifleman should not be able to fire at the 1 second speed cap.
Update to this post...he can now clear out 3 pickets at a time using strafe shot 3 in about 4 seconds (four shots). This crazy shot does multi-target for over 5k damage, and he can fire once per second. That is WAY too fast for such a high damage atack. There is no way anyone can dispute this, it's rediculous.
BTW - the pickets hunted were the level 32 mission ones...plains walkers?
DAVCRE In short.... I don't believe Master Pistoleers fire at the 1 second speed cap. Perhaps close to it, but not at the cap.
I've seen BH/pistoleers outpace a master pistoleer in speed. Not by much, but it was faster. So if 1 second is the cap.... then master pistoleers aren't hitting it.
A pistol is a Pistol. A Rifle is a rifle. the carbine was developed in world war one as a short rifle for tankers to manuever around inside the tank just in case the enamy got to the hatch. A little bit of info the history channel had. now on to my main point. Why can a master rifleman one shot kill a player at the speed of a pistoleer? It boggles my mind. I see the rifleman as the sniper who hid in the shadows one shot killing there unsespecting target. they can be quick at it, but percision shot were paramount. As it stands now the rifleman can run around like a pistoleer at the master level shooting at anything because of that massive accuracy mod they get. carbineers and pistoleers can get it to but they have to invest in master scout and the bountyhunter skill tree adendum to there chosen ranged class (carbines, bounty carbine specialization. pistols bounty pistol specialization.) The rifleman gets that all rolled into one class at the cost of 29 skill points. the other ranged class cannot match that as it stands now because the rilfeman of today have skills invested in other classes to enhance there profession. carbines and pistols must take a step into bountyhunter to match the rifleman in accuracy now. I call that unbalenced game machanics. however the current game machanics don't allow the rifleman to play the sniper beyond PvE due to the radar and overhead map every one has access to. they can't hide only shoot while the target is distracted in PvP.until the game machanics let the rifleman fill the role of sniper and and really long range combatent the speed mod they get should stay.
As for pistoleers there special attacks should be faster. They are the gun slingers of star wars, able to pop off a shot in less then a second and hit there mark, at a decent range for a pistol. the delay on the specials should be non existent. stopping shot does to little damage to marit the delay it has. torso shot is faster, has a shorter delay, does the same damage, and has a burn. even if the speed cap is one second the time delays should reflect the percision or speed used in each profession. Just my thoughts on the topic. i will be a pistoleer and a rifleman at the same time soon so if the post is still going I will reply again
Tilor_ wrote:
And in response to a later question in the thread....a machine gun IS a different class of weapon from a rifle in RL...
Well its not a pistol thats for sure 
apparently not a carbine either since they were special creations for use inside tanks?
well anyway i'd think the "futuristic" Star wars would have rapid repeating rifles or pistols or carbines. What should vary is the accuracy and delay when using specials.