Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Rifleman Conspiracy
We have by far the worst DPS at Master anyway.
Dardanus wrote:
Who cares if we have the best DPS if I go down in one secondwith one well placed head shot.
Whoever said that riflemen can spam their specials at one shot per second is ignorant. Yes, master riflemen can AUTOATTACK at 1 shot/sec., but have you ever looked at the delays on the specials? I'll do a quick breakdown for you for the most commonly used shots:
Headshot2: 1 shot every 1.5 seconds at master
Flushingshot2: 1 shot every 3 seconds
Strafeshot2: 1 shot every 3.5 seconds
T21s won't do jack against composite because the damage modifier for AP doesn't apply in PvP, only the AP value. T21s have huge HAM drains too. A rifleman in full armor can only fire SS2 about 3 or 4 times with a lower HAM T21 before their mind is gone. T21s are worthless except as an autoattack weapon, most people are just too blinded by its size and AP3, or are simply stupid.
As far as PvP goes, as a Pistoleer, do you ever tumble? I've run into plenty of tumbling pistoleers who I could barely land a shot on because they were constantly tumbling. Try using all of your skills, not just spamming your most powerful shots.
Sigh...
Pistoleer/Rifleman here.
There is a major flaw in this convesation right now. At Novice, a pistoleer is going to destroy a rifleman, pure and simple. There is a forum filled with angry NoviceRiflemen about how they can't keep up with the evil pistol users and that they should all be nerfed into the stone age.
While at Master, a rifleman will destroy a Pistoleer in a one-on-one duel. Now all the pistoleers want to bring down the Nerf Gods because the Evil Riflemen are in GOD MODE.
There are huge flaws in both sides reasoning here.
For Riflemen, pistols are inherantly good against melee opponents compared to the rifle. At novice, you're infinitely more likely to hit a critter at point blank with your pistol than the rifle.Pistols also take less damage. So, as a rifleman, why does one attack critters when there are good ranged weapon opponents around. Every imperial NPC I've ever encountered is a blaster user, as is every Binayre on Talus.
For Pistoleers, you had an easier time levelling and didn't have to invest as much time to get to Master, as well, you can HEAL your special damage, unlike a rifleman. Avoid them in one on one situations. You will lose; just like that rifleman did at novice when you burst ran to 20m and spammed bodyshot2 to bring that rifleman down before s/he could fire a second shot at you. As for the aforementioned 4v1 situation: is it just me or did one master rifleman take out 3 people AND another master rifleman? If they were so hardcore, why didn't the two rifleman stalemate? It only goes to prove the point that the lone rifleman had dabbled quite extensively outside of rifleman.
I will admit, Rifleman is the king of the ranged classes. A pistoleer will get chewed up One on One. However, a pistoleer has a nearly indefinite lifespan on a battlefield, whereas a rifleman can only work as fast as his/her Mind bar will allow. However, have you ever seen a Master Rifleman tear apart a Teras KasiMaster or Master Swordsman? Given the situation, I highly doubt it. The fact of the matter is that Melee classes are uniquely suited for destroying the very melee-vulnerable Riflemen. Pistoleers will fair much better against Melee characters and to sacrifice, aren't as good against the other ranged classes.
On another note, there is a review going on currently for the Armor System. As it sits now, the T21 will most likely be nerfed against lightly armored and unarmored opponents and the pistols will be boosted against armor. Based on this, the whole debate could be mootif the T21 gets cut in the damage area by a large percentage.
As for the Rifle speed advantage, consider the following:
At Master, an averageT21 on Tempest fires at7.6 andhas a +90 speed modifier.
7.6*(1-0.90)= 0.76 speed
At Master, an average FWG on Tempest fires at 2.0 and has a +76 speed modifier. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please)
2.0*(1-0.76)=0.48 speed
So, your logic is flawed, a basic Master Rifleman will still shoot slower than a Master Pistoleer.
Of course, this doesn't account for the fact that Master Marksman will cut a rifle speed by 50% while a pistol is only reduced by 20%. Nor does it account for the possibilities for a Pistoleer to take Bounty Hunter-Pistol or Smuggler-Pistol.
*********
To conclude, I have a few points.
1: In what world does a 9mm pistolmatch for power witha Light Machine gun? (FWG versus T21)
2: Why did you decide to be a pistoleer? Because it was something enjoyable and the thought of shooting a pistol seemed more honorable and chivalrous than blasting an enemy from 60m away in one shot, or was it that you saw the best combat class and jumped on it? If its the latter, if you really want to stay on top of the game, I'd recommend changing with it. Become a rifleman this week, then carbineer the next when the complaints of that community is finally heard. Classes are changed up in order to prevent the power gaming type from migrating entirely to one class.
3: AP is up for review, you may be complaining about a has-been class anyway.
4: Dual pistols are on the distant horizon. THAT is some cool stuff, if you ask me. Cool enough to weather whatever self-perceived storm is brewing.
5: This game is about having fun. If you like shooting a pistol, shoot a pistol. If you enjoy shooting a rifle, shoot a rifle. If you want to be the best of the best, be ready to adapt or be left behind.
Blankgrun wrote:
There is a major flaw in this convesation right now. At Novice, a pistoleer is going to destroy a rifleman, pure and simple. There is a forum filled with angry NoviceRiflemen about how they can't keep up with the evil pistol users and that they should all be nerfed into the stone age.
While at Master, a rifleman will destroy a Pistoleer in a one-on-one duel. Now all the pistoleers want to bring down the Nerf Gods because the Evil Riflemen are in GOD MODE.
I think this was a good summary of the situation prior to the last patch. I've levelled both Pistoleer and RIfleman prior to the last patch, and you're right that Pistoleer is a lot more n00b-friendly. I found Rifleman even easier to level, personally, but that's because I think it rewards skill a lot more -- I was playing like a smart, experienced player instead of some new player who just picked up a rifle, which made Rifle super easy. Pistoleer is a lot more friendly to new and inexperienced players who don't have much in-game knowledge.
Since the last patch, though, that's really changed because the two biggest disadvantages of Rifleman are gone. Prior to the last Live patch, Riflemen needed to be prone and /aim until they got to high levels ... now they get +135 Accuracy by the time they reach Master, and can hit accurately from all ranges. Second, on TC the 2.5 melee modifier has been taken away -- that was the other major disadvantage of Rifle.
Before, Riflemen used to be a profession that was far more powerful than Pistoleer at Master but was weaker at Novice. Now it's more powerful from top to bottom. And I think professions should be balanced not just at the bottom but also at the top ... we'll all eventually get to the top, especially in a game as easy as SWG. Skill points (which are finite) are the way to determine balance, not difficulty of levelling up.
Blankgrun wrote:
As for the Rifle speed advantage, consider the following:
At Master, an averageT21 on Tempest fires at7.6 andhas a +90 speed modifier.
7.6*(1-0.90)= 0.76 speed
At Master, an average FWG on Tempest fires at 2.0 and has a +76 speed modifier. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please)
2.0*(1-0.76)=0.48 speed
So, your logic is flawed, a basic Master Rifleman will still shoot slower than a Master Pistoleer.
No, your calculations are flawed. Read my earlier post for correct calculations ... you're not using the right equation. (Or even the right values ... a Master Pistoleer has +74 speed.)
Blankgrun wrote:
On another note, there is a review going on currently for the Armor System. As it sits now, the T21 will most likely be nerfed against lightly armored and unarmored opponents and the pistols will be boosted against armor. Based on this, the whole debate could be mootif the T21 gets cut in the damage area by a large percentage.
Actually this is absolutely false. This perception is untrue and it's based in part on poor communication from the Correspondents and also in part on overreaction and a misreading by forum posters. There is NO REVIEW OF THE ARMOR PIERCING SYSTEM. A long time ago the "Armor Guide" was published that explained how AP was supposed to work. Months ago, the Devs posted that this info was incorrect and gave us the correct equation.
Lately a bunch of players (mostly Riflemen) and Correspondents have been testing this data, claiming that the AP in the game right now is bugged or somehow wrong. They presented some data to the Devs, and their reaction was that everything was "working as intended," that the combat spam we're seeing is actually wrong (as opposed to the AP system being wrong), and that they wouldn't consider making changes until they got a whole ton of data that they could analyze to find a problem.
The only people talking about a "review" of armor piercing and saying there's a "nerf" on the way are folks on the forum who misread a post that wasn't well written to begin with.
Blankgrun wrote:
2: Why did you decide to be a pistoleer? Because it was something enjoyable and the thought of shooting a pistol seemed more honorable and chivalrous than blasting an enemy from 60m away in one shot, or was it that you saw the best combat class and jumped on it? If its the latter, if you really want to stay on top of the game, I'd recommend changing with it. Become a rifleman this week, then carbineer the next when the complaints of that community is finally heard. Classes are changed up in order to prevent the power gaming type from migrating entirely to one class.
5: This game is about having fun. If you like shooting a pistol, shoot a pistol. If you enjoy shooting a rifle, shoot a rifle. If you want to be the best of the best, be ready to adapt or be left behind.
I agree with you that the game is about having fun, and needless to say most of us on this forum didn't pick Pistoleer because we loved the cool special attacks or thought the DX2 was an overpowered weapon. 
Personally, I'm not all that worried about "combat balance" right now ... I'm more worried about fixing the broken stuff in Pistoleer. I think you should fix the professions first before balancing them. But I think you can understand why Pistoleers are frustrated ... as you point out the Riflemen are "the king of the ranged classes" right now, yet it's THEIR profession that keeps getting attention and fixes from the Devs even though their profession already works pretty darn well. We just want our profession to get fixed too, and don't understand why we're last in line. I'm sure the Carbineers are as frustrated as we are.
Message Edited by Philosopher1976 on 12-04-2003 04:36 PM
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Blankgrun wrote:
On another note, there is a review going on currently for the Armor System. As it sits now, the T21 will most likely be nerfed against lightly armored and unarmored opponents and the pistols will be boosted against armor. Based on this, the whole debate could be mootif the T21 gets cut in the damage area by a large percentage.
Actually this is absolutely false. This perception is untrue and it's based in part on poor communication from the Correspondents and also in part on overreaction and a misreading by forum posters. There is NO REVIEW OF THE ARMOR PIERCING SYSTEM. A long time ago the "Armor Guide" was published that explained how AP was supposed to work. Months ago, the Devs posted that this info was incorrect and gave us the correct equation.
Lately a bunch of players (mostly Riflemen) and Correspondents have been testing this data, claiming that the AP in the game right now is bugged or somehow wrong. They presented some data to the Devs, and their reaction was that everything was "working as intended," that the combat spam we're seeing is actually wrong (as opposed to the AP system being wrong), and that they wouldn't consider making changes until they got a whole ton of data that they could analyze to find a problem.
The only people talking about a "review" of armor piercing and saying there's a "nerf" on the way are folks on the forum who misread a post that wasn't well written to begin with.
True, there is no official review of the AP system, because the devs think the system is working. I'm not sure if your reading the Weaponsmiths corespondants sticky post about AP, you might want to takea look. Logix (WS corsespondanat) posts a snip of a recent message [within last week]where a dev saythat AP>AR should NOT do extra damage to a person, AND that he had looked over the programmers shoulder when they examined the actualcode and it should be working using the below forumula.
Well since we all see AP>AR doing extra damage, It is not working like he said, so one of his statements is incorrect. The Dev (Keldarian) said he would do more thorough code review, and to keep more data incoming.
Here is the formula that AP>AR should be using:
Actual Resist = (Armor Resist Listing) / (AP - AR)* 2.
There is no extra damage added, just lowering of resists. **Extra damage should be done to the armor, but itshould not hit the player.
--Rorrimot
meyer1215 wrote:
True, there is no official review of the AP system, because the devs think the system is working. I'm not sure if your reading the Weaponsmiths corespondants sticky post about AP, you might want to takea look. Logix (WS corsespondanat) posts a snip of a recent message [within last week]where a dev saythat AP>AR should NOT do extra damage to a person, AND that he had looked over the programmers shoulder when they examined the actualcode and it should be working using the below forumula.
Well since we all see AP>AR doing extra damage, It is not working like he said, so one of his statements is incorrect. The Dev (Keldarian) said he would do more thorough code review, and to keep more data incoming.
I'm extremely aware of the communications between Logix and Keldarin. As you point out, Keldarin doesn't think there should be any changes to the way AR works because he thinks that it's working as intended.
You're right that sometimes our combat spam contradicts what Keldarin said, and Keldarin himself admitted that in his post. He said that the combat spam incorrectly displays the damage done ... the problem is with combat spam, not armor piercing. He didn't promise to do anything ... he just said that if they found a problem they would change it, but that it would take a whole ton of data to convince him that there was a problem because the combat spam is incorrect and there are so many different variables involved.
I think it's great that players are taking it upon themsleves to test armor piercing and get data to the Devs on it. For whatever reason these players want to get armor piercing changed ... and if they're right that it's not working as intended, they're doing us all a service. But this is just a bunch of players getting the Devs data, nothing more. The Devs haven't raised the subject of armor piercing, aren't planning to change it, aren't reviewing it, and are convinced that it's working properly.
Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for changes to armor piercing.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
I'm extremely aware of the communications between Logix and Keldarin. As you point out, Keldarin doesn't think there should be any changes to the way AR works because he thinks that it's working as intended.
I can actually see that now. I've been using subscriptions and bookmarks to track some posts lately, and this has cause me to not check some forums as often as i normally would.An AP thread that I've been following did not have a post by you in it, but ijust saw in several others discussing AP thatshow you are on top of this.
It just got to me that the devs possibly have been working this long witha 'world view' that might be extremely different from most players player 'game view' of SWG.
--Rorrimot
Philosopher:
"I think this was a good summary of the situation prior to the last patch. I've levelled both Pistoleer and RIfleman prior to the last patch, and you're right that Pistoleer is a lot more n00b-friendly. I found Rifleman even easier to level, personally, but that's because I think it rewards skill a lot more -- I was playing like a smart, experienced player instead of some new player who just picked up a rifle, which made Rifle super easy. Pistoleer is a lot more friendly to new and inexperienced players who don't have much in-game knowledge.
Since the last patch, though, that's really changed because the two biggest disadvantages of Rifleman are gone. Prior to the last Live patch, Riflemen needed to be prone and /aim until they got to high levels ... now they get +135 Accuracy by the time they reach Master, and can hit accurately from all ranges. Second, on TC the 2.5 melee modifier has been taken away -- that was the other major disadvantage of Rifle."
-I have leveled after the patch and have only noticed the increase in accuraccy when I hit master. When I was at sniping 4 our accuracy line I still missed a hell of alot. No, the last patch did not make leveling rifleman easyer since as you stated we get the BIG bonuses at master.
-second the way the AP Dev is quoted makes everyone who reads his post believe AP is not working correctly and the proper way for it to work is that it damages armor, not reduces resistance, and definately not how it works now with damage bonuses.
-OK Philosopher, maybe your right on the AP thing but I know I'm right on the leveling thing. BTW if you have a quote on how AP is supposed to work could you please post it.
-Also firing a T21 with Strafe Shot 2 at master I currently fire 1 shoot for every 2.1 seconds(This is with a post nerf T-21 also, wich are faster than prenerfs but deal considerablly less damage)
I agree that Master Pistoleer is under powered, but I don't think nerfing Rifleman is going to make a straight up pistoleer better than a BH0-0-4-0 Smuggler 0-0-4-0 Pistoleer 0-2-0-3 Dabbler.(One second last ditchs and KD is much better than 2 second Strafe Shot 2's) You should focus on making Master Pistoleer to pistols what Master Rifleman is to rifles.
-Don't give me that Flurry Shot+Supression crap either, been a rifleman for 6 months and I still can't get that god dammed combo to work.
BTW to rant more not only is Master Pistoleer under powered, but so is BH, Commando, Fencer, Sowrdsman, Pikeman(HA HA HA HA HA), and Squad Leader(I'm just gonna cry for this one). Why the hell Does eveyone want to break the masters that work right so we can share your misery?
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
-OK Philosopher, maybe your right on the AP thing but I know I'm right on the leveling thing. BTW if you have a quote on how AP is supposed to work could you please post it.
Great post Pysco -- interesting points. I don't have a lot of time to reply (busy at work) but here's a quick rundown of how armor piercing is supposed to work:
Let's say your opponent is wearing 50% Composite Armor.
If the attacker uses a T21 (heavy armor piercing / AP3), 78.125 percent of the damage will not be blocked by the armor. (That's 50 * 1.25 * 1.25, because AP 3 is two greater than AR 1.)
If the attacker uses a FWG5 (no armor piercing / AP 0), only 25 percent of the damage will get through. (50 / 2 because AP 0 is one worse than AR 1.)
You're absolutely right. And that's my goal -- to make Master Pistoleer to pistols what Master Rifleman is to rifles. And your post brings up an important point ... the way that SWG is structured means that you can't just balance one class v. another class because there is a profession/skill box model. You have to balance various templates against each other, which means getting all the combat lines/boxes balanced. You can't have one line in a profession be far more powerful than the other 3 or else it will be dabbled.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
I agree that Master Pistoleer is under powered, but I don't think nerfing Rifleman is going to make a straight up pistoleer better than a BH0-0-4-0 Smuggler 0-0-4-0 Pistoleer 0-2-0-3 Dabbler.(One second last ditchs and KD is much better than 2 second Strafe Shot 2's) You should focus on making Master Pistoleer to pistols what Master Rifleman is to rifles.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
BTW to rant more not only is Master Pistoleer under powered, but so is BH, Commando, Fencer, Sowrdsman, Pikeman(HA HA HA HA HA), and Squad Leader(I'm just gonna cry for this one). Why the hell Does eveyone want to break the masters that work right so we can share your misery?
I think you're absolutely right that we shouldn't be trying to get working professions nerfed -- we should be focusing on fixing our own professions instead. That's why I said, a few posts ago, that "Personally, I'm not all that worried about "combat balance" right now ... I'm more worried about fixing the broken stuff in Pistoleer. I think you should fix the professions first before balancing them."
I still believe that. Who knows how good Pistoleer (or the other professions you mention) would be if it was fixed? Until it's fixed we shouldn't worry about balance. You balance fixed professions, not broken ones. Until we're all fixed, there's no sense worrying too much about combat balance. I think we're all just frustrated in the Pistoleer forum because we haven't gotten many fixes lately.
Actually you're the one who is ignorant. If a Master Rifleman is using a 7.2 speed T21 (by far his slowest weapon) he can fire a HeadShot2 every 1.26 seconds. And that's his slowest rifle. Use a Laser Rifle instead and he'll be firing every second. Or better yet, just get Master Marksman as well and the Master Rifleman can fire HeadShot2 from the T21 once per second.
Serenius wrote:
Whoever said that riflemen can spam their specials at one shot per second is ignorant. Yes, master riflemen can AUTOATTACK at 1 shot/sec., but have you ever looked at the delays on the specials? I'll do a quick breakdown for you for the most commonly used shots:
Serenius wrote:
I've had master marksman. It makes no difference. I've been a master rifleman for months now. I know what I'm talking about. The rate of our specials is multiplied by the one second speed cap. Your combat queue may show varying times, but that is the result of client to server lag.
Here, I'll do the math for you:
Master Rifleman firing HeadShot2 (1.75 delay) with a 7.2 speed T21: (7.2 * 1.75) - ((90/100) (7.2 * 1.75)) = 1.26 seconds.The Master Rifleman can fire HeadShot2 with anyrifle with 5.71 speed or lower at the one second cap.
With Master Marksman as well, he can even fire the T21 at the cap: (7.2 * 1.75) - ((95/100) (7.2 * 1.75)) = 0.63, which is lower than the one second cap.
Hopes this helps you.