Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Devs Answered OUR Questions on Damage Mitigation
I do feel that you missed my primary points, and a couple things I would like to point out:
1.> I said at least one time that I was not expressing personal opinion about how I felt about the changes to dabblers vs masters, but actually just pointing out that due to the mechanics, it is infact a "relative" strength nerf on the dabbler vs. the master.
As a master myself, I actually support making master pistoleer better than it is in comparison to dabblers, but I just can't tolerate people claiming that something isn't a nerf just because it may be a good change to the system.
Sometimes nerfs are good in the grand scheme, but not to those who got nerfed. Nerfs also don't have to be a complete nerf, but can be a nerf to power in a situational sense...in this case it could have HUGE impact on skill decisions for PvP people, because instead of making master more appealing, it almost makes it essential for PvP, especially if you start to look at their concepts for changes down the road.
You just can't change the meaning of the language to suit your personal opinions.
"This is making master stronger. It in no way weakens dabbling." -Leelak
This is simply false. It weakens the amount of damage a dabbler can do against a master...and for good or bad...it does in one way weaken dabbling in a very direct sense.
Ok. :-)
2.> I was mainly expressing my continuing doubt that we will get ANY of the improvements we have been asking for until this process is done, and then possibly not many of them due to how they would unbalance the newly "balanced" system. (ex., not improving speed for us since rifleman will now get hit the hardest with mitigation as a factor of large damage ranges on their weapons...simple math).
3.> Since most of the response to mine was as much speculation as my post, I think another point becomes more clear...which is that they need to be more clear about the upcoming changes.
Simply stating they are going to screw everything up for the next 4 months...but it will get better...really...implies you have enough faith in them. I would rather see ALL of the mechanics explained now and make my decision to stay or not instead of spending monthly fees on a game that is going to very soon get more out of whack than it is now just to find out later that I hate the new system. Somehow a completely disfunctional combat system made it what...6 months after release...doesn't particulary give me a ton of faith that they will do any better the 2nd pass.
Add this to the fact that I am already tired with how long it takes me to kill anything in comparison to a master riflemen (sorry folks, they get AEs, shoot plenty fast, and do substantially more damage) and as far as I can tell, their intent is to actually make combats last longer, which makes me want to scream. I am tired of shooting up the same creatures to make money to pay for the overpriced stuff that now decays faster so that I stay well equipped to keep shooting the same creatures...(hmmm)...and by god I am not going to take more time to do it.
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Either way...already been 2 weeks since I have played swg, so I am starting to care less and less. :-)
I really do hope they fix this game, it is truly a noble attempt at a player based universe. However, I think Horizons and then WoW are calling my name. :-)
Cheers!
roboslug wrote:
I have don't have the mental energy to get involved in a complete response to the main response to what I posted
I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow, since I'm off to bed right now, but I just wanted to mention that I laughed my head off when I read your first sentence haha 
ShadowoftheVoid wrote:
granted the FT and LLC have a way higher min damage...but for some like the LLC the range is 400 between min/max...so just like the laser rifles...these are going to get hammered by the damage mitigation...
Don't forget ... there are going to redo the weapons line ... remember TH's bit about Novice Level T21's and Master Level T21's and everything in between right?
I would bet money that will probably take the current LLC and make it master level ... and probably drop that some as well ... then everything will reduce down from there.
They are starting to *balance* for masters in their sweeps ... as a Master Weaponsmith I am going to be most anxious to see how this works out. I really hope they don't end up making 6 of every weapon (novice->master). If I end up having to make 6 different styles of everything, I think I will go batty :-)
probably mitigation 1 (a little) but no mitigation will stack so if you have a master pistoleer mitigation 3 will surely override the smugler 1.
Anyway - this is a positive change in my opinion - there're some professions out there that have no benefit of getting master besides a PvP fight will last way longer than it lasts now (5-10 seconds when masters)
The only complaint I have is that between Stat mitigation and Character resistences, the numbers listed on yourweapon are really moot unless you're mathematically minded enough to calculate which of your weapons is best suited for a situation three seconds before the situation occurs. Things were pretty simple when all you had to consider was whether or not your prize pistol with 25% of its damage shaved off was still better than your inferior pistol at 100% potential. Now I've got to do that on top of examining the range of the two (or more, as the case usually is) weapons and determining which one will take the greater hit there. I had the patience to look into these numbers prior to damage mitigation but I'm feeling sort of overwhelmed since I don't keep a calculator nearby and I doubt I'd have the time to punch the numbers into it anyway before the only meaningful numbers at the timebecomes what is my character's bank accountminus 2,000 credits for insurance.It seems pretty unfair to me to tell somebody 'This is the range of damage you gun will do' when that has never been the case from the beginning! I think we've alwayshad a1.5 * damage range displayed on your gun calculation, which seems like superfluous. Just make the gun read THAT number at least, so that on an unarmored, stat mitigation = 0 NPC opponent, the difference between what your gun's roll was and the damage popping over the enemy's head is simply the diceroll * the special's damage multiplier.
I know, it's not a big issue but in my brief skim across the post I don't believe it's been brought up. As far as game math goes, I'm all for keeping things simple, so there's less room for screw-ups.
MisterLeebo wrote:
The only complaint I have is that between Stat mitigation and Character resistences, the numbers listed on yourweapon are really moot unless you're mathematically minded enough to calculate which of your weapons is best suited for a situation three seconds before the situation occurs.<snip>
I agree totally. Maybe we need a checkbox in the options 'Weapon Hints On' so that when you initiate combat, the SWGclient can look at every weapon in your inventory, check the resists of the mob, the mitigation of the mob, the armor of the mob, your certifications and then post a message in the middle of your screen:
'Intuition tells you that you should switch to the DX2'
People whowanna dothe math themselvescan, others can let the client. It would also be a great diagnostic for combat.
BTW, if my math is correct, and it's the *new* math, so it may not be....then minimum powerups are still worthless (with mitigation), at least for non Krayt, post nerf pistols. A Max Dmg Power up is still better. A min dmg powerup will hurt your average. 40% of a bigger range is better than 40% of a smaller range.
Examples w/****no Mitigation****:
Scout Blaster 74min, 145max dmg = 109 Avg. **no powerup**
Scout Blaster74min, 188max dmg = 131 Avg. **+30 Max Dmg Pup**
Scout Blaster 96min, 145max dmg = 120 Avg. **+30 Min Dmg Pup**
Examples w/Mitigation 3 (Avg of Min Dmg and Min Dmg plus 40% of the range of Min and Max Dmg)
Scout Blaster 74min, 145max dmg = 88 Avg. **no powerup**
Scout Blaster 74min, 188max dmg = 96 Avg. **+30 Max Dmg Pup**
Scout Blaster 96min, 145max dmg = 83 Avg. **+30 Min Dmg Pup** *ouch*
Even a combo pup, like a +15%min +30% Max will not be as good (94 Avg). Nor will a +30min +15% Max (88 Avg). I did not post the other examples, but I did the math for the pre nerf FWG5, DX2, and pre nerf Scatter as well, and the results are that the Max Dmg Pup is better still, and that you *do not* want any min dmg in your powerup.
JWalker Black
Master Mathmatician (j/k)
Scout Blaster 96min, 145max dmg = 83 Avg. **+30 Min Dmg Pup** *ouch*
Indeed, this "new math" some how allows for an average of two numbers to be lower than both of them.
also as I understand it it's not averaging. It's taking 20, 40, and 60% (going up the levels) off of the max damage based on the difference of max and min. so on your example of the 74-145 pistol (are you using the same scout blaster as me? weird..anyway..) with the 30% mods ...
(i'm so **edit** tired, don't ask me why I decided doing 5th grade math was a good thing I just know I'm gonna screw something up here, heh) (secondary disclaimer, these results are calculated based on how I've interpreted what we're being told about this. I could be very wrong based on method aside from quite possibly being wrong doing math at a quarter to eight in the morning)
74 * .3 = 22.2 | 22.2 + 74 = 96.2 | 145 - 96.2 = 48.8 | 48.8 * .6 = 29.28 | 96.2 + 29.28 = 125.48 | soyour damage range is going to be (against a master) 96.2 - 125.48, averaging 110.84 so we'll say you're gonna average 111
145 * .3 = 43.5| 43.5 + 145 = 188.5 | 188.5 - 74 = 114.5 | 114.5 * .6 = 68.7 | 74+ 68.7 = 142.7 | so your damage range is 74 - 142.7,averaging 108.35, meaning to us 108 points for your average shot since we don't see decimals tick off over our heads.
so you see the difference is minimal on a gun with these numbers, but put those figures to lazer rifle, or a lightning cannon, and it starts to add up a LOT upping minimum damage vs. max.
Dinian wrote:Master Gunfighter / Master Fencer should also look really good for any Pistoleers that are interested in experimenting with a melee class.
If you are one of these brave folks, look forward to a really fun time (melee is a great change of pace from ranged combat). However:
- At the very least buy some Advanced or Basic Chitin/Ubese. Especially a good chest, legs, and helm.
- Pay doctors for a solid set of enhancements
- Pay your local chefs for some quality food/drink
You can thank me later
That template was tested recently and man let me tell you, it was nasty, It took me forever to get the 3 eyeshots needed to down him