Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer vs rifleman...its just so funny
MadcowwithSARS wrote:
BadgerSmaker wrote:
Pffth... wrong forum?
Well the thread is concerning rifleman also, so i think his question isnt out of line. Did it hurt your feelings so much seeing it here?
Cried all night.
Waste93 wrote:
one2tp wrote:.....
Some of your numbers are a bit misleading.
Accuracy - You aren't adding in some of the accuracy mods. You are also missing the accuracy mods added from specials. For pistol specials it's up to +50 while rifles its only +15. In the end the accuracy difference is only about +5 (standing while moving). Which represents about a difference of about 3%.
Speed - You aren't adding in that Rifles also have a much higher base speed. Though I wouldn't disagree with you that Pistols need a boost on the top end and/or reduction in the delay mods. My view is that a Master should be at or just about at the speed cap for all professions. That is what I think of when I hear 'Master'.
All due respect Waste, but you disregard game balance when you say this. How do you possibly explain two combat professions firing at the same rate, but one doing twice the damage? Unless the rifleman is required to kneel or set up a firing position (which takes time), you are talking about MAJOR inbalance in the game. Do you actually support such inbalance sir?
Defenses - You aren't including the state defenses. Of which Rifles have very little while Pistols have a fair amount (though it should be higher). You also aren't including the melee bonus to hit Rifles. Which negates most if not all of the Rifles melee defense and makes Rifles effectively unable to cap melee defense when using a Rifle.
One can stack Master Rifleman with other professions to cap both melee and ranged defense. These defensive modifiers are not affected by the accuracy of the attack either. Dodge, btw, can be "cut" through by accuracy. A melee opponent, say TK with +200 accuracy, cut's through dodge quite nicely.
Mind vs Health - Rifles also have a much higher HAM cost in using their weapons. This use to keep thinks in check with Mind being unhealable until buffs made the HAM costs irrelevant. But originally the ability to target the unhealable Mind was the advantage for the high Mind HAM costs. But as mentioned above, Buffs have killed the balance point in this regard.
I agree.
Weapons - You are comparing special loot weapons to basic weapons. Loot weapon/schematics are suppose to be harder to craft by their nature. You'd have to compare the DE-10 and Geo Stun to the Berserker and DXR-6b in regards to ease of crafting to be more accurate.
Perhaps you missed that we are showing how our special loot weapons still get us nowhere near to achieving a game balance in any form compared to your everyday weapons.
Overall - Yes Pistoleers need help. That is what we are trying to acomplish in the CU/R/B. The main problem is that in the present system the only thing that matters is damage output. Which plays to the Rifles strengths. Hard MOBs were made so by giving them high HAM, armor, resists, etc.
This negates what should have been the advantages of Pistoleers which are based on a defensive scheme as opposed to an offensive scheme like Rifles. It also negates combat multipliers for the most part since high level MOBs are effectively immune to state attacks.
That is something we are trying to address with the CU/R/B. So that even though the strengths and weaknesses are different. All professions will have situations that they are more advantageous over others.
Not all professions will be equally effective against a specific target of course. But overall they should all have a generally equal effectiveness in the game. A Rifleman may be better against a NightSister for example, while a Pistoleer would be better against a Krayt, while a Carbineer would be against some other high level target.
That isn't the case now of course. But it's what our goal is.
Good observation, and thank you for your commitance to making the CU what it is supposed to be.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 12-17-2004 09:36 AM
one2tp wrote:.....
Some of your numbers are a bit misleading.
Accuracy - You aren't adding in some of the accuracy mods. You are also missing the accuracy mods added from specials. For pistol specials it's up to +50 while rifles its only +15. In the end the accuracy difference is only about +5 (standing while moving). Which represents about a difference of about 3%.
Speed - You aren't adding in that Rifles also have a much higher base speed. Though I wouldn't disagree with you that Pistols need a boost on the top end and/or reduction in the delay mods. My view is that a Master should be at or just about at the speed cap for all professions. That is what I think of when I hear 'Master'.
Defenses - You aren't including the state defenses. Of which Rifles have very little while Pistols have a fair amount (though it should be higher). You also aren't including the melee bonus to hit Rifles. Which negates most if not all of the Rifles melee defense and makes Rifles effectively unable to cap melee defense when using a Rifle.
Mind vs Health - Rifles also have a much higher HAM cost in using their weapons. This use to keep thinks in check with Mind being unhealable until buffs made the HAM costs irrelevant. But originally the ability to target the unhealable Mind was the advantage for the high Mind HAM costs. But as mentioned above, Buffs have killed the balance point in this regard.
Weapons - You are comparing special loot weapons to basic weapons. Loot weapon/schematics are suppose to be harder to craft by their nature. You'd have to compare the DE-10 and Geo Stun to the Berserker and DXR-6b in regards to ease of crafting to be more accurate.
Overall - Yes Pistoleers need help. That is what we are trying to acomplish in the CU/R/B. The main problem is that in the present system the only thing that matters is damage output. Which plays to the Rifles strengths. Hard MOBs were made so by giving them high HAM, armor, resists, etc.
This negates what should have been the advantages of Pistoleers which are based on a defensive scheme as opposed to an offensive scheme like Rifles. It also negates combat multipliers for the most part since high level MOBs are effectively immune to state attacks.
That is something we are trying to address with the CU/R/B. So that even though the strengths and weaknesses are different. All professions will have situations that they are more advantageous over others.
Not all professions will be equally effective against a specific target of course. But overall they should all have a generally equal effectiveness in the game. A Rifleman may be better against a NightSister for example, while a Pistoleer would be better against a Krayt, while a Carbineer would be against some other high level target.
That isn't the case now of course. But it's what our goal is.
Ternque01 wrote:
From the research I have seen, ranged and melee defense are not subject to reduction by attack accuracy. Maybe your block is, but what I hear is that ranged/melee D is just like saber block, a straight percentage regardless of accuracy.
Defenses are negative mods to the accuracy. So that if you have Ranged Defense +100 and Ranged Accuracy +150. Your accuracy bonus is +50. They are not like Saber Block though. Saber Block is a flat percentage unaffected by anything. It's a seperate roll. If you were correct, then having a capped defense would make you effectively impossible to hit. Since it caps at +125. That would mean a 125% chance of defense.
You are right that in all secondary defenses are effected by accuracy.
Your example of justifying damage output with lower survivability is poor given the history of SWG. For example. BH's were designed to be extremely offensive, yet have poor defenses. They were nerfed. Combat Medics... extremely high damage output... extremely low survivability in a battle. They got nerfed.
I'm saying that the way to balance is to use combat surivability as the balance point. Not damage output. Making it damage output makes everyone the same.
What I DO think are viable solutions to offset damage output is limiting that damage output in some form or fashion (besides survivability). Flamethrowers, for example, cannot be used more than 15 or so meters. Similarly, I think the accuracy mods for riflemen should go waaaaay down up close. Pistoleers have a nice pvp gun, the geonosian, but it has a limited range of 45 meters. Melee classes are a powerhouse, but only up close.
A Master Pistoleer is just as accurate at max range as a Rifleman is at close range. Because the current accuracy mods add up to the point they hit the to hit cap (about 95%).
Reducing Rifle accuracy at close range isn't a problem. But you'd also have to lower Pistol accuracy at max range.
What we currently have are rilfemen doing the job of pistoleers. Riflemen are defense stacking like crazy and can run and gun people up close. Pistoleers are supposed to do that, but riflemen do our role 10 times better than we. Not to mention that rifleman do take more damage from melee fighters, but that melee defense takes a straight percentage of how many times they are hit, regardless of the accuracy of their attacker.
Nope. See above. Defense is factored in the to hit formula along with accuracy. It isn't a seperate roll nor a straight percentage.
You might justify that things will be balanced in the CU, but don't even expect me to buy that things are even remotely balanced now. Riflemen do twice the damage, fire at the same speed, and might as well have the accuracy of a pistoleer up close and moving. Complete bullsh*t.
Not diagreeing with you here. It is borked at the moment. Been saying that for a year or so. Which is what we are trying to fix.
My post was originally to correct some errors in the original post.
It is a f***ing shame that I will do better in PvP using an average rilfe from the bazaar compared to using my 550 geo, 500 DX2, and 500 Rep. blaster. I'm not sore... now am I? No, actually I am. It angers me that the most iconic weapon in Star Wars is a pile of junk.
I understand your frustrations. I was playing Rifles back when there was the 2.5X melee damage penalty that caused one hit incaps from Meatlumps. Along with creature warping. It was very frustrating at times. No buffs or decent foods made Rifles deplete their Mind after about ten shots.
Wish I could give you some good news but I can't.I realized you are probably tired of hearing about it but we have to wait for the CU/R/B before any of the combat problems will be addressed. I don't know what else to tell 'ya.
What I told those on the Rifles boards. Do what you can to have fun for now. Once the CU/R/B comes out it will be a whole new game. It isn't just changes to combat, it is a whole new system. We are all doing all we can to address the problems you brought up here.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 12-17-2004 03:08 PM
Ternque01 wrote:
Yes Waste, and I am gratefull for your dedication to the CU. I still swear to you that accuracy cannot cut through melee/ranged defense. Maybe I'll find some numbers somewhere.
Simple test. If it works the way you are suggesting. Then have someone with capped defenses (+125) stand still.
If it works as a direct percentage like Saber Block, you should have no chance to hit them (unless there is a min to hit chance). Since if Saber Block +85 blocks 85% of the shots, then Ranged/Melee Defense +125 would block 125%. Which is all of it plus some.
Yes?
Then find someone with a DXR-6B which usually has a very high accuracy. They will be able to hit the stacked defender. Which shows that accuracy does effect Ranged/Melee defense. If it didn't then the weapon accuracy wouldn't matter since the defense would be a straight percentage regardless of accuracy.
It wouldn't matter how accurate you were and ther shouldn't be a difference between the two if what you suggested is correct. However if there is a difference then we can say that accuracy does effect defenses.
BrerLapin wrote:a) Riflemans the longest grind Ive ever done its stircrazily boring. BTW Investigation (without mounts) easier than Rifleman.b) OMFG +Dodge+ you stupid gungan halfbreed.Rifleman gets 75% speed at 0004. Four boxes worth 445.5k Combat XP you know the thing you only get as 10% of your actual weapon XP. Now to be fair the poor old Pistoleer only gets +59 for the same boxes & XP.Well that sucksRIFLES HAVE 8.0 speeds & pistols have 2.0, 3.0 if their really bantha poodoo. So by the time a rifleman can be firing at once every 2 seconds your pistoleers firing once every second. My heart frikken bleeds for you.
+Dodge+ ahh how I miss thee, Dodge NEGATES any attack. Block stops half the damage & you take the state. Should I repeat that?
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 12-03-2004 05:41 AM
A spraystick says hello, n00b. I decided to sell out so I could help my guild in hunts and got master rifles in 2 days. In the beginning it was spraystick (which is basically equal to a really good pistol...lol) and point blank area 1 at lairs.
Grinding pistoleer (without BH pistols mind you), on the other hand, will swallow your soul. I did it twice...the time when I was a MCH (in the long, long ago) wasn't that bad...mostly because it was when you could get krayt/nym FWG5s too.
Then there's the little issue of how speed mods reduce speed exponentially, so what you pretend is a small amount less actually causes riflemen to cap with speed sliced rifles long before pistoleers do with much faster pistols. I've often wondered if they got confused and switched the speed mods for pistoleer and rifleman. It's sad when the "awesome" weapon that they give pistoleer at master needs insane krayt tissue to be of any value at all to a pistoleer without double-digit speed SEAs or BH pistols. I believe the last one I made with base tissues was about 3.9 with the best spawns on Ahazi...yep, that's waiting 4 seconds to use stopping shot at master. Meanwhile a rifleman is spamming strafe2 every 2.6 seconds with a unenhanced T21 (same damage mod, about 2 times the weapon damage, AP3, AOE). And with +6 speed, the rifleman is capped. With +6 speed you're shooting stopping shots every 3.1 seconds with that l337 DE-10. Yes, it's the player speed mod that caps you, not the weapon speed.
Finally....the rifleman defenses are nuts. That's a large part of why people use it in templates...when combined with TKM or fencer it'll basically cap your ranged/melee defense. That's just messed up too, since pistoleers are supposed to be the tanks of the ranged professions... I remember getting mauled by Black Sun the last time I tried pistoleer...now, with just rifleman, they hardly dent me.
one2tp wrote:
i guess we all know it but heres some facts....
Pistoleers best energy weapon = De-10 ap1 low dmg. Hard to craft
Riflemans best energy weapon = T21 ap3 high dmg. Easily crafted
Pistoleers best Stun weapon = geo blaster ap0 Hard to craft
Riflemans best Stun weapon = Jawa rifle ap1 Easily crafted
Now that the riflemans weapons is so much better then pistoleers then where is the pistoleers advantage? the specials?
Rifleman got:
Area attack/states attack/mind attack
Pistoleer got:
Health attack
Then the skill mods....
Rifle acc = 160
Pistol acc = 95
Rifle speed = 90
Pistol speed = 74
Then the defensive skills...
Rifleman:
40 melee defence
70 Ranged defence
Pistoleer:
45 melee defence
7 Ranged defence
Ofcource the pistoleers state defence is better but lets not talk about that.
Lets have some of that giggle dust the devs smoked when creating this.
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 12-21-2004 02:09 AM
rifleman specials: area attack/stun + dizzy/mind dmg
pistoleer specails: fire/mind dmg/triple bleed shot/melee attack
rifleman pointblank accuracy mod = -50
pistoleer pointblank accuracy mod = anywhere form 0-+50
rifleman accuracy while moving = +10
pistoleer accuracy while moving = +30
rifleman accuracy = +160
pistoleer accuracy = +170
rifleman speed = +90
pistoleer speed = +129
then as you said pistoleer wastes rifles in defenses. so when you add BH to the combo pistoleer will beat rifleman 90% of the time other than that, id have to say your a goner
just some more stats for ya. Eye shot spams faster than HS3 too so even though your accuracy is much higher than ours ven if u miss your popping another shot right away. riflemen miss then wait a few secs then try again. unless of course your a PvE talking, then ya i really feel your pain