Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The three main weapons classes must unite!
BAH... you're distracting me... Master Pistoleer should be > Expert BH
umm.... they already are. if you haven't been reading the post, the whole argument isthat any pistoleer could kick a bh's ass, no matter what level the bh. what people are complaining about is that bhs get a lot of skill mods and the like for pistols, when all they have to master for pistol is 4 skills. well, how the hell else is bh supposed to be able to beat anything? they have no SP's to invest in other professions to get more mods. If they didnt get this boost they would be the most worthless class ever-no one would even want specials with a llc, bc u could go commando for a lot less sp's and do more damage with a flamethrower.
BH's are supposed to be godly, but they suck a** in pvp. how are they supposed to hunt jedi when they can be KD'd and killed faster than anything else? ive seen something on the bh board that had a picture of the combat spam for a carbineer vsa bh with no weapons, and a chef, and they both got killed around the same time. go look it up, it wasn't too long ago. Anyway, the point is BH's suck, so quit complainen about how u cant kill them, or how they get ranged mods and stuff.
Like I'll say again, for about the fourth time now, ANY PISTOLEER COULD KICK A BH OR A COMMANDO's A**. unless theyr a complete dumba**. So stop complaining about pistoleer sucking-they dont by a longshot
"Just a question though, if Pistoleer/Carbineer/Rifleman get an elite elite class, will they finally be on the sameplane as a BH or Commando?"
I hope your kidding? Explain to me this plane your talking about?
Bh you guys get BH mission remeber that, yes we know there are no pvp bounties etc...(should be)
but you pay skill points to get these missions you can possibly get jedi player missions too, thats where some of your skill points go to you get nice BH weapons only, and the missions.
Pistol, carbines, and rifles all must do another profession to be able to do otherskills or perksthan to just shoot, add in another elite profession to get this ability and we equal your skill point total. And we dont even whine about not having free medic abilities.
Master BHs are in no way overpowered.. seriously. There are a BUNCH of Pistoleer-based templates that are WAY more powerful..
MPistol / MFencer + Some Teras Kasi or Smuggler DF - Yikes.. 210 dodge with CoB is ridiculous. Not to mention all those state defences.
MPistol / MSmuggler / TKM - KD/Dizzy up close, ranged KD, lastditch, panic shot, stoppingshot, powerboost.. or drop a line of something to get medic. Plus all those state defences again, which really kills one of BHs primary attacks (BH carbine ranged dizzy/KD).
As for BH speed mods, I still have 13 or 14 FWG/Scatters stashed away with a speed less than .4. And republic blasters can still be made that can be brought down below the one second threshold. I don't think speed matters when guns get that fast.
And with eyeshot.. Tangle Pistols really are not an option. They're still gated by that that stupid iron that never spawns with good Conductivity. If that ever changes (heh), they may be a viable weapon.. but right now, they suck.
Leave the BHs alone, and learn to work with all the SPs you have.. not just the 92 you spend on one class. And be grateful you don't have to spend almost ALL your SPs to master one class.
MydnyghtDaywalker wrote:
Master BHs are in no way overpowered.. seriously. There are a BUNCH of Pistoleer-based templates that are WAY more powerful..
MPistol / MFencer + Some Teras Kasi or Smuggler DF - Yikes.. 210 dodge with CoB is ridiculous. Not to mention all those state defences.
MPistol / MSmuggler / TKM - KD/Dizzy up close, ranged KD, lastditch, panic shot, stoppingshot, powerboost.. or drop a line of something to get medic. Plus all those state defences again, which really kills one of BHs primary attacks (BH carbine ranged dizzy/KD).
I'm not going to get into comparisons of power between professions, but I have a quick point to make to you. Why are you calling these "Pistoleer-based templates"? Both templates spend the majority of their points in other professions. In both of them, Pistoleer specials aren't what's being used ... it's the very powerful Smuggler Dirty Fighting line that's the offensive attack. The only reason you're including Pistoleer is for the speed and accuracy bonuses.
The reason Pistoleers on this forum are upset is because we *have* to get other professions since our own profession doesn't work on its own. Yes, you're right that Smuggler Dirty Fighting and TKA and Fencer are powerful. Our beef is that Pistoleer doesn't work on its own.
As a side note, we support BHs and want their profession to be strong as well. Just realize that the fact that we can pick up other professions that *do* work is not an excuse for why our profession is broken on its own, and please don't call these uber dabble templates based on the specials in other professions "Pistoleer templates." The templates are based on the attacks in another profession and most of the points spent aren't on Pistoleer.
Unless you area Master of your respectivecombat profession, then you really need to shut up.
Many people get very upset because an Expert, Investigator, or Avenger kill them in PvP. And most of the people who complain are people who have yet to Master their profession, and have no **edit** idea how powerful they are at Master.
It is not about experience points, those are always available and obtainable. It is about skill points, the one main limiting factor in the game. No matter how much you deny it or twist it to your own perspective, the game and professions are all about skill points.
This has been said before, but some people just seem to not comprehend any of it, mainly the twelve year olds. Novice Bh requires more Skill points than any other profession. Its funny how Novice Bounty Hunter actually requires more Skill Points than most master elite professions, and yet still people think we are overpowered and need to be weaker than every other elite profession.
When it comes down to it every tree in Bounty Hunter takes more Skill Points to obtain than any Master Elite Profession. Yet a Master Bounty Hunter is the worse template in the game for combat. You could easily master a ranged profession and a melee profession and have twice as many skill points left over than a MBH.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
MydnyghtDaywalker wrote:
Master BHs are in no way overpowered.. seriously. There are a BUNCH of Pistoleer-based templates that are WAY more powerful..
MPistol / MFencer + Some Teras Kasi or Smuggler DF - Yikes.. 210 dodge with CoB is ridiculous. Not to mention all those state defences.
MPistol / MSmuggler / TKM - KD/Dizzy up close, ranged KD, lastditch, panic shot, stoppingshot, powerboost.. or drop a line of something to get medic. Plus all those state defences again, which really kills one of BHs primary attacks (BH carbine ranged dizzy/KD).
I'm not going to get into comparisons of power between professions, but I have a quick point to make to you. Why are you calling these "Pistoleer-based templates"? Both templates spend the majority of their points in other professions. In both of them, Pistoleer specials aren't what's being used ... it's the very powerful Smuggler Dirty Fighting line that's the offensive attack. The only reason you're including Pistoleer is for the speed and accuracy bonuses.
The reason Pistoleers on this forum are upset is because we *have* to get other professions since our own profession doesn't work on its own. Yes, you're right that Smuggler Dirty Fighting and TKA and Fencer are powerful. Our beef is that Pistoleer doesn't work on its own.
As a side note, we support BHs and want their profession to be strong as well. Just realize that the fact that we can pick up other professions that *do* work is not an excuse for why our profession is broken on its own, and please don't call these uber dabble templates based on the specials in other professions "Pistoleer templates." The templates are based on the attacks in another profession and most of the points spent aren't on Pistoleer.
Thats the problem. You can't and shouldn't betoo powerful on your own. If the pistoleer or any other class for that matter was as strong as a Master Gunfighter/ Smuggler DF/ TKM/ whatever, then that would be everyones main profession.Master Pistoleer works just fine, ecspecially since it only costs 92 skill points. Its all about the skill points. Granted that half or more of the specials do not work up to expectation or are totally broke it is a very good profession.
Chaimera wrote:
Thats the problem. You can't and shouldn't betoo powerful on your own. If the pistoleer or any other class for that matter was as strong as a Master Gunfighter/ Smuggler DF/ TKM/ whatever, then that would be everyones main profession.Master Pistoleer works just fine, ecspecially since it only costs 92 skill points. Its all about the skill points. Granted that half or more of the specials do not work up to expectation or are totally broke it is a very good profession.
You're either ignoring what I'm saying, or you're just ignorant. Obviously Pistoleer on its own shouldn't work as well as Pistoleer when it's combined with other professions. No duh. 
Every profession should get better when you combine it with other professions in a smart way, but all professions should work on their own, albeit not as well. And by the way yes, skill points are the way you balance professions. You're talking to me like I'm five years old. I'm smarter than you think.
The problem is that Pistoleer, on its own, is broken. You say that "half or more of the specials do not work up to expectation or are totally broke" ... so how can you possibly say that "Master Pistoleer works just fine"? I spend the same number of skill points as a Rifleman or TKA, and more points than someone who just has the Dirty Fighting line of Smuggler, and I get worse specials and abilities than all three of those guys. Heck, as you point out, most of my specials don't even *work* right now.
The definition of a "working" profession, in my opinion, is one where: (1) each of the skills/abilities do something significant and useful, (2) the skills/abilities get better as you go up the tree instead of worse, and (3) the skills/abilties work on their own without getting a second profession. Based on those three criteria, Pistoleer does not "work" in any sense of the word.
It's insulting to the people on this forum to tell them that they should go master another profession that does work because theirs is broken, or worse yet tell them that it's "just fine" that their profession is broken because they'll be powerful if they just pick up a powerful profession that does work well. What if they don't want to be a Smuggler or a BH? Maybe they want to be a Combat Medic/Pistoleer or a Musician/Pistoleer. The profession should at least *work* for those folks too. Sure you'll always be more powerful if you're a Master TKA *and* a Master Pistoleer, but Pistoleer should work on its own, period.
I can't see howyou saythese templatesspend the majority of points in other professions.. it's not like you CAN spend more than 92 points on Pistoleer. And Fencer and TKM only take 92 points as well, and Smuggler just a bit more (and some actually spend less as they only take the DF line). I guess you could call them fencer templates or TKM templates or whatever.. but the fact is, that without MPistoleer most of them wouldn't work. And it's not just the speed bonuses. State defences and dodge modifiers are also very important to most of these templates.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
I'm not going to get into comparisons of power between professions, but I have a quick point to make to you. Why are you calling these "Pistoleer-based templates"? Both templates spend the majority of their points in other professions. In both of them, Pistoleer specials aren't what's being used ... it's the very powerful Smuggler Dirty Fighting line that's the offensive attack. The only reason you're including Pistoleer is for the speed and accuracy bonuses.
The reason Pistoleers on this forum are upset is because we *have* to get other professions since our own profession doesn't work on its own. Yes, you're right that Smuggler Dirty Fighting and TKA and Fencer are powerful. Our beef is that Pistoleer doesn't work on its own.
To be honest with you, most professions really don't workthat wellalone. Fencer by itself is not all that powerful, it's just the combination of the crazy dodge/state defensemodifiers from fencer and pistol that make it sooooo good (along with CoB). Not to mention 4 stacked health bleeds. There's a lot of synergy there, and in the end it makes both classes MUCH more powerful.
TKM is pretty rare in that it doeshold upvery well on it's own, especially in PvP. But without another melee profession or ranged profession,it's basically useless againstharder mobs because of the lack of AP and bleeds,as well as avery limited damage type (kinetic only). Investing in a second combat class as a TKM is almost a neccessity to engage higher end content.
Smuggler DF is a very powerful line.. but let's face it. Smuggler by itself is not gonna get you anywhere. They have zero state defences, zero accuracy/speed mods, zero damage mitigation (in the next patch), and zero ranged/melee defense. The wholeclass basically has to have MPistoleer or BH Pistol in order to survive.
As a side note, we support BHs and want their profession to be strong as well. Just realize that the fact that we can pick up other professions that *do* work is not an excuse for why our profession is broken on its own, and please don't call these uber dabble templates based on the specials in other professions "Pistoleer templates." The templates are based on the attacks in another profession and most of the points spent aren't on Pistoleer.
I certainly understand that Pistoleer has a LOT of broken/useless specials that need to be fixed. I'm a pikeman.. I know ALL about borked specials
. But I don't think MPistoleer is entirely broken. A LOT of damage can get done with just stoppingshot/PMD1 and bleeds with a decent Pre-Nerf FWG5 or current Rep. Blaster. Still, I would love to see all those useless specials fixed.. I'm headed back to Pistoleer when I finish up with my Holo professions, because pistols, despite their problems, are still my favorite weapons.
In your other post, you say that you spend just as many points as a TKM. Very true. And in a lot of situations, MPistoleer, even by itself, will be more useful than a TKM. Anything with medium armor or greater is gonna be very hard for a TKM to take down. Pistoleers have the option to bleed.. TKMs don't. You also have probably the greatest array of weaponry available as far as different damage choices go. TKMs have one - Kinetic. Does this make them broken? Not really, it's just a limitation of the class.
A pure rifleman also has a lot of things going against it. Rifleman suffer from the need to distance themselves from a target (with CH or possibly another player), or have an alternative means of combat when mobs do close in on you (probably Swordsman for the mind bleed synergy). Not to mention the horrific drain on the mind pool they have.
My point is that every class relies on other classes to fill gaps up to a point. Personally, I think it's a neat system because the choices you have to fill in those gaps are varied, and leave each character just slightly different with the choices they make. I don't think it's neccessarily a good thing that acombat class be self-sufficient, because the diversity available now is part of what makes the game interesting. Pistoleer is definently the most versatile of the professions in this respect, simply because you do have so many options that work well with it. I think it's part of the reason why there ARE so many pistol users.
For people that choose to go Pistoleer/Musician or Pistoleer
MydnyghtDaywalker wrote: I can't see howyou saythese templatesspend the majority of points in other professions.. it's not like you CAN spend more than 92 points on Pistoleer. And Fencer and TKM only take 92 points as well, and Smuggler just a bit more (and some actually spend less as they only take the DF line). I guess you could call them fencer templates or TKM templates or whatever.. but the fact is, that without MPistoleer most of them wouldn't work. And it's not just the speed bonuses. State defences and dodge modifiers are also very important to most of these templates.
My point is just that it's inaccurate to call them "Pistoleer" templates, and I don't like when people call a 250-point templatea "Pistoleer" template when the player has spent more points on other skills.
The fact that Pistoleer's defensive bonuses are a benefit to these templates are a good point, but remember two things: (1) the Dodge doesn't work unless you have a pistol or one-handed weapon equipped and (2) whether Pistoleer Dodge and Fencer Dodge will stack in the future is a very open question, as I've reported elsewhere.
My point was just that the ONLY thing that works in our class are our modifiers. The weapon and specials don't work. To include our profession in a template ONLY for its modifiers and then say that it's a "Pistoleer" template is misleading.
MydnyghtDaywalker wrote:
To be honest with you, most professions really don't workthat wellalone. Fencer by itself is not all that powerful, it's just the combination of the crazy dodge/state defensemodifiers from fencer and pistol that make it sooooo good (along with CoB). Not to mention 4 stacked health bleeds. There's a lot of synergy there, and in the end it makes both classes MUCH more powerful.
TKM is pretty rare in that it doeshold upvery well on it's own, especially in PvP. But without another melee profession or ranged profession,it's basically useless againstharder mobs because of the lack of AP and bleeds,as well as avery limited damage type (kinetic only). Investing in a second combat class as a TKM is almost a neccessity to engage higher end content. Smuggler DF is a very powerful line.. but let's face it. Smuggler by itself is not gonna get you anywhere. They have zero state defences, zero accuracy/speed mods, zero damage mitigation (in the next patch), and zero ranged/melee defense. The wholeclass basically has to have MPistoleer or BH Pistol in order to survive.
You're not addressing my point -- you're changing the argument. Your argument is that other professions "don't work well" alone, by which you mean that they aren't POWERFUL alone. I never claimed that Pistoleer needed to be powerful on its own (although it should be as powerful as Carbineer or Rifleman or TKA), but it needs to work on its own. Fencer and Smuggler work in a way Pistoleer does not because their specials are useful, they provide a benefit to them, they get better as you go up the tree, etc. I have no idea what the fact that Smugglers don't get modifiers is supposed to prove. Smuggler isn't supposed to be a stand-alone combat class. My point is just that all those attacks work and provide a useful benefit to the Smuggler. A Smuggler-only officer in my PA duels people all the time and wins ... he almost beat me once when I was a Master Pistoleer + Expert BH. The bottom line is that their profession works. Those specials do something useful.
MydnyghtDaywalker wrote:
I certainly understand that Pistoleer has a LOT of broken/useless specials that need to be fixed. I'm a pikeman.. I know ALL about borked specials
In your other post, you say that you spend just as many points as a TKM. Very true. And in a lot of situations, MPistoleer, even by itself, will be more useful than a TKM. Anything with medium armor or greater is gonna be very hard for a TKM to take down. Pistoleers have the option to bleed.. TKMs don't. You also have probably the greatest array of weaponry available as far as different damage choices go. TKMs have one - Kinetic. Does this make them broken? Not really, it's just a limitation of the class.
A pure rifleman also has a lot of things going against it. Rifleman suffer from the need to distance themselves from a target (with CH or possibly another player), or have an alternative means of combat when mobs do close in on you (probably Swordsman for the mind bleed synergy). Not to mention the horrific drain on the mind pool they have.
My point is that every class relies on other classes to fill gaps up to a point.
You're completely off the mark here, once again. I think you really missed the entire point of my post.
You're trying to make the argument that every profession has something they can't do. TKAs can't spit out energy damage, etc. Well no duh. Once again I feel like I'm being talked to as if I'm a three year old.
That's not my point. My point is that based on my criteria Pistoleer does not work -- almost all of its specials and its pistol do not provide a significant benefit, aren't better than what you had before you got them, etc.
Your point that other professions can't do everything misses the mark. Pistoleer, even if it was all fixed, couldn't do everything either -- we don't have heavy armor piercing weapons, have no state effects, etc. But at least we'd be working.
Your point seems to be that if we can damage an opponent with our specials, then we're "working" no matter what. That's like telling a Droid Engineer that their profession is "working" because they can make and sell droids. I mean, come on. It's kind of insulting having someone from another profession tell me that I have to live with the fact that my profession is broken because it's good enough for them. Well tell you what, I'm a paying customer and it's not good enough for me. I have the feeling most of the folks in this forum agree with me.
By the way, when you talk about other professions, get your facts right. If you're a Pikeman you'd know that the problem with that profession isn't their specials -- which work well -- but rather their accuracy and HAM costs. As far as Riflemen go, now they get tons of Rifle Accuracy (around double the Pistol Accuracy we get) so they no longer have accuracy problems. The 2.5 melee penalty is gone too. Just minor points, for clarification.
Message Edited by Philosopher1976 on 12-12-2003 09:19 AM