Pistoleer Archive

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SilverLobo wrote:

Defense Vs does stack. Here is a test I did today.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=29443

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Great work. Based on your tests, Defense v. Knockdown from TKA and Fencer stack. A few thoughts:

1) You seemed to resist knockdown FAR more than I did. How often does the TKA hit/miss folks who have no Defense v. Knockdown? I suspect that the reason you're resisting so much is because the bare feet have such low damage (even lower than the CDEF my Master Bounty Hunter friend was using).

2) Is it possible that only melee defenses stack? I'm going to have to run tests with a bunch of different guinea pigs to figure this out for sure, because your data was far different than mine. It could be that some other variable is at work that I haven't considered.

Also, just so you know, the TKA Correspondent has asked the Devs to tell us whether the defenses stack, and I told the Devs that the Pistoleers would really like to know too. Hopefully they'll give us a straightforward answer so we don't have to waste many more hours testing.

Thanks again for your hard work. Maybe we can work together in future tests.

Just FYI, "bare feet" do not have low damage for a TKM, unless over 300 per unstyled hit is low.. however unarmedkd has a damage multipler (2.5x?)on it so it's more in the 600-800ish range.

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_Macabre_ wrote:
Just FYI, "bare feet" do not have low damage for a TKM, unless over 300 per unstyled hit is low.. however unarmedkd has a damage multipler (2.5x?)on it so it's more in the 600-800ish range.

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Hmmm ... interesting. What I'm trying to figure out is why 70% Defense v. Knockdown resisted 90 percent of knockdowns from a TKM but 50% resisted far less from a Master Bounty Hunter.

It could be that each special has a particular percentage chance to knockdown, and some are better than others. I really don't know. It could be that the defender against the TKM was buffed, and the knockdown equation somehow takes HAM into account.

I just don't know, but it looks like I'm going to have to run more tests to figure it all out. *sigh*

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_Macabre_ wrote:

An unarmed non-trandoTKM will currently average 397.5dmg per unstyled hit and unarmedkd1 has a 2x multiplier for 795dmgwhich may be even more than the KD with the laser carbine you were using?

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Around the same. So there's something else going on. *shrug*

Asking for answers in the private black hole of the Correspondent Forum doesn't always yield fast results, so it couldn't hurt to keep this thread alive in the Discussion forum:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=862648

Just try to be as clear and concise as possible with any questions or comments and we're much more likely to get a response.

Thanks!

A sincere thank you to everyone who has taken the time to run these tests

My theory why I resisted so much is the style itself has a pre-set percentage to KD vs someone with no KD defense. Remember the test was using knockdown one, which is a lower level KD for TKA. If knockdown 2 didnt come with a dizzy I would have tested that and you would have seen a lower resist rate I am sure. So in this case we were using a style that had a low chance already of KD someone, then add the defense in and you get the numbers I have.

Dont be to concerned with the percentage that I resisted but how close each test was in resisting. Yes it was high, but if the theory was correct that you only used the defense granted from the weapon you are holding there would be a obvious diffrence in each case. Even if I only resisted 35% of the time, but it was roughly the same on all 4 cases it would prove the same thing.

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SilverLobo wrote:

My theory why I resisted so much is the style itself has a pre-set percentage to KD vs someone with no KD defense.

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I think you're right about that. I was trying to say the same thing in my previous post. There could be other factors at work too, but I think the special/style is likely the culprit.

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SilverLobo wrote:

Dont be to concerned with the percentage that I resisted but how close each test was in resisting. Yes it was high, but if the theory was correct that you only used the defense granted from the weapon you are holding there would be a obvious diffrence in each case. Even if I only resisted 35% of the time, but it was roughly the same on all 4 cases it would prove the same thing.

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You're right. I understood that as well -- I'm just trying to understand how knockdown works more generally, because I'm interested in figuring that out too.

I thought that your tests were helpful in showing that Defense v. Knockdown from Fencer and TKA stack. Solely on the stacking front, here are the questions I still have:

1) Does non-Melee Defense v. Knockdown work no matter what weapon is equipped as well? I suspect so, although this would mean my original CDEF Carbine data was off/inaccurate.

2) Does your data hold up if other styles/specials are used? It could be that Knockdown1 from TKA fails a lot no matter how much Defense v. Knockdown you have, because it's so lousy. Let me state this more precisely. Let's say that Defense v. Knockdown is only taken into account if the knockdown roll -succeeds-. If Knockdown1 only succeeds 10% of the time anyway, we wouldn't expect Defense v. Knockdown to make much of a difference in the final results. So we need to try some other specials just to be sure.

3) Do other defenses stack? My data strongly suggest that Dodge does not work if you are unarmed. Does it work if a one-handed weapon is equipped? What about a rifle? carbine? etc. Those are answers that we'll have to figure out with further tests.

Thanks again for your help and hard work. It really makes it easier to test when we're all working together and sharing data. Thanks again.

great job everyone.
but there's something i'd like to know.
it seems to me like you haven't put much consideration on other defense bonus: ranged defense and melee defense.
i think they're as useful as dodge and defense vs xxx.
the question is: do they stack?
if i

great job everyone.
but there's something i'd like to know.
it seems to me like you haven't put much consideration on other defense bonus: ranged defense and melee defense.
i think they're as useful as dodge and defense vs xxx.
the question is: do they stack?
i'm planning a fancy, cross-profession, pvp template, but it's mostly based on ranged defense, so i'd like to know if it's going to work.... i just don't have much time to play, so i can't afford to run tests and everything.
anyway, thanx for the great job.
it would be good if devs could answer us on this. shouldn't be very difficult to find out for them...
ciao

I have contributed three posts with data on the Fencer forum on Melee Defence/Dodge stacking testing:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=9861

So far, the evidence is mixed -- in my latest test, I did not show any improvement in missing or dodging when holding a pistol at 0/0/1/3 Fencer vs. 0/4/0/0 Brawler.

I'm rather disappointed by these results.

Dodge/block/counterattack already have naturally deminishing returns. For example, suppose that you have a 20% chance to avoid a hit with each of these skills. You have an overall chance of .8*.8*.8 = .512 or 51.2% chance of getting hit if each is applied individually.

I wonder about melee defense and ranged defense. Presumably those HAVE to stack given that master musicians, rangers, etc. receive some mods to these.

We need more testing for the pistoleer/fencer stacking. Maybe Philosopher has to work up some fencing skills on TC so that he can use the correspondent terminal to test. =P

Also it seems to me that it might be best to test with a carbine or such in your hand instead of no weapon at all.

Regarding the damage and it's chance to knockdown: TKA's are a tricky case. The base damage on fists is actually 10-20. On top of that TKA's get a damage bonus of +250 at master. After a multiplier of 1.5 on their normal attacks that leads to a 390-405 base damage. BUT, the knockdown could just be using the 10-20 and ignoring the +damage modifiers. This would be easy to test, you just have to try with vibroknucklers as well. VK's also get the damage mod. They will be better for both cases (counting the damage mod or not), but the difference would be much more noticeable if it is the case that the damage mod isn't counted for knockdown.

Any good work, although disappointing to me as a brawler. =P

StGabe.

whats sad tho....really

is we have higher MODs in one tree that are more useful than the total MODs an SL can give at master! lol

dont get me wrong i love these defenses. just wish SL would get soemthing

imagien SL's with +100 to EVERY MOD weeeeee lol

..oh ok....ill go back to moping now.....