Pistoleer Archive
Thread: OFFICIAL Developer Responses to our Top 5 Issues
biwan:
roymitchel1
Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:45 am
#41
someday... ill see an overt rebel... and use a special from my master pistoleer box. someday...
Jessalyn_Bohicat
Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:36 pm
#42
roymitchel1 wrote:
someday... ill see an overt rebel... and use a special from my master pistoleer box. someday...
hah
someday i will se an overt rebel and not have to use the smuggler specials
someday i will see a rebel and get to shoot him with 2 guns at the same time
some day i will see a rebel, and he will be an expert BH, but i will shoot faster than him....
/sigh
Minimized
Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:43 am
#43
You do realize that SOE will likely yank all of the profession-based weapon speed modifiers for the marksman-based professions, right? Those modifiers are a bane to anyone attempting to balance the combat classes.
My numbers may be slightly out of date, but hopefully this example serves an illustrative purpose. Please accept my apologies for any errors.
Master Marksman: +30 pistol/carbine/rifle speed
Master Pistoleer: +49 pistol speed, +79 with master marksman
Master Carbineer: +40 carbine speed, +70 with master marksman
Master Rifleman: +65 rifle speed, +95 with master rifle
Ignoring the disparity between the bonuses, one can clearly see that the bonuses are substantial. They are so powerful that they can turn sub-par weapons into veritible machine guns. Weapon quality means a whole lot less to masters.
That master pistoleer/marksman can fire a pistol with a speed of 4.76s every second.
That master carbineer/marksman can fire a carbine with a speed of 3.33s every second.
That master rifleman/marksman can fire a rifle with a speed of 20s every second.
Weapons alone were initially balanced by their firing speeds, among other things. As illustrated above, the weapon speed balanaces are almost meaningless when masters are involved. Rifles were allowed to hit hard because they were 'slow'. Mastery eliminates this scheme. The only solution to this predicament is to return all of the speed balances to the weapons themselves, and remove them from the professions.
Only after this is done can one begin to address balance between combat professions. It is galling to think that SOE actually believes they can fix "everything", when their initial attempt was so very broken.
My numbers may be slightly out of date, but hopefully this example serves an illustrative purpose. Please accept my apologies for any errors.
Master Marksman: +30 pistol/carbine/rifle speed
Master Pistoleer: +49 pistol speed, +79 with master marksman
Master Carbineer: +40 carbine speed, +70 with master marksman
Master Rifleman: +65 rifle speed, +95 with master rifle
Ignoring the disparity between the bonuses, one can clearly see that the bonuses are substantial. They are so powerful that they can turn sub-par weapons into veritible machine guns. Weapon quality means a whole lot less to masters.
That master pistoleer/marksman can fire a pistol with a speed of 4.76s every second.
That master carbineer/marksman can fire a carbine with a speed of 3.33s every second.
That master rifleman/marksman can fire a rifle with a speed of 20s every second.
Weapons alone were initially balanced by their firing speeds, among other things. As illustrated above, the weapon speed balanaces are almost meaningless when masters are involved. Rifles were allowed to hit hard because they were 'slow'. Mastery eliminates this scheme. The only solution to this predicament is to return all of the speed balances to the weapons themselves, and remove them from the professions.
Only after this is done can one begin to address balance between combat professions. It is galling to think that SOE actually believes they can fix "everything", when their initial attempt was so very broken.
Xodarap777
Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:00 am
#44
They need to not only give pistoleers a higher speed (especially at master), but lower caps on the specials. It does us no good to have the fastest weapon in the game when specials aren't being used, if it's slow as hell when they are being used! Who the hell actually shoots without specials, anyways?
I propose a special with a very low HAM cost and mediocre damage, which shoots VERY VERY fast. Like 0.2 or so (like my gun says on its lying stats). The DPS could be normal, but the effect would be worth it to me. /Shrug... I just picked this class for speed.
Randonb
Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:00 pm
#46
This speed crap had to be a mistake. A collosal mistake. It doesn't make sense at all.
Minimized
Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:00 am
#47
It just seems like the initial combat system was given little to no long-term thought. It is as if they planned on replacing it during release, and thus ignored an actual balance examination. That is the only explanation I can envision that encompasses the decisions made about the current broken combat system.
Just look at the specials. Anyone with any knowledge of statistics such as damage per second and cost vs. benefit would realize that almost all of the specials have no use. In addition, many of them are simply redundant or useless regardless of their qualities.
Thunderheart reports in an almost surprised fashion that players would spam a single special and come close to incapacitation in doing so. Well, of course players act that way. The specials that target a single pool cut your combat with that particular NPC by 66% if all things are equal. Specials are spammed down to incapacitation because that's what it takes to win. Random HAM damage and regular shooting is almost always useless. The only cases where it is not is when the random HAM damage is exceptionally powerful or if the professions involved don't have a targetted HAM attack.
I get the feeling that their new system will fail to fix any of the true problems, and turn combat into a tedious mess.
Will they bother addressing the broken way in which range vs. weapon type is currently implemented? That hard cap of 64m basically destroys any true way to devise long- and short-range weapons. You can always close distance with a target, negating range. You can't always create distance between yourself and your target, which again negates range.
Given master marksman combined with pistoleer, carbineer, or rifleman, pistols are useful at every range, and they shouldn't be. Carbines and rifles are good at longer ranges, but have illogical penalities at closer range.
What really needs to happen is that weapons have different actual ranges, instead of various to-hits within the 64m limit. Unfortunately, the game engine doesn't support true long-range attacks (100m or more), so the combat system will always be broken.
I am rambling, time to stop.
Just look at the specials. Anyone with any knowledge of statistics such as damage per second and cost vs. benefit would realize that almost all of the specials have no use. In addition, many of them are simply redundant or useless regardless of their qualities.
Thunderheart reports in an almost surprised fashion that players would spam a single special and come close to incapacitation in doing so. Well, of course players act that way. The specials that target a single pool cut your combat with that particular NPC by 66% if all things are equal. Specials are spammed down to incapacitation because that's what it takes to win. Random HAM damage and regular shooting is almost always useless. The only cases where it is not is when the random HAM damage is exceptionally powerful or if the professions involved don't have a targetted HAM attack.
I get the feeling that their new system will fail to fix any of the true problems, and turn combat into a tedious mess.
Will they bother addressing the broken way in which range vs. weapon type is currently implemented? That hard cap of 64m basically destroys any true way to devise long- and short-range weapons. You can always close distance with a target, negating range. You can't always create distance between yourself and your target, which again negates range.
Given master marksman combined with pistoleer, carbineer, or rifleman, pistols are useful at every range, and they shouldn't be. Carbines and rifles are good at longer ranges, but have illogical penalities at closer range.
What really needs to happen is that weapons have different actual ranges, instead of various to-hits within the 64m limit. Unfortunately, the game engine doesn't support true long-range attacks (100m or more), so the combat system will always be broken.
I am rambling, time to stop.
roymitchel1
Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:51 am
#48
you do realize that if there wasnt a 64m cap on all weapons, everyone would just go rifleman and kite the crap out of everyone else.
Minimized
Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:56 am
#49
There isn't a 64m cap on all weapons. At least one, the flame thrower, requires the user to be much closer. I don't see everyone flocking away from commandos, so your logic is flawed.
Planetside has a wide variety of weapons with various ranges, from short to very long. Different game, to be sure, but why wouldn't that work with SWG?
The answer is obvious: The 64m cap simply doesn't allow for much in the way of range differentiation. The 'long' range rifle isn't much different than the 'short' range pistol.
You could make varying weapon range caps work, but it would involve overhauling the whole combat system. Removing the profession-based speed modifiers would help out tremendously. Sure, your rifle fires 100m, but you can't fire it faster than once per 10 seconds, ever.
Planetside has a wide variety of weapons with various ranges, from short to very long. Different game, to be sure, but why wouldn't that work with SWG?
The answer is obvious: The 64m cap simply doesn't allow for much in the way of range differentiation. The 'long' range rifle isn't much different than the 'short' range pistol.
You could make varying weapon range caps work, but it would involve overhauling the whole combat system. Removing the profession-based speed modifiers would help out tremendously. Sure, your rifle fires 100m, but you can't fire it faster than once per 10 seconds, ever.
lorildeh
Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:01 am
#50
Madrox wrote:
While nice.....
They plan to fix EVERYTHING with the "Combat Balance Pass"?
Aside from the obvious complaint about the time-table for that to come around...don't they see that trying to fix every combat profession at once is just a can of worms just waiting for them to open it?
Some things I could see, like weapon changes and the speed equation. But I think at least the specials being broken could be fixed fairly quickly.
I don't know, maybe it's just me...
Marksmen
Pistoleers
Carbineers
Riflemen
Bounty Hunters
Commandos
Smugglers
Brawlers
Teras Kasi
Fencers
Swordsmen
Pikemen
Squad Leaders
Combat Medic
Creature Handler
Jedi?
All at once? Does that not scream trouble?
i agree just because i've never seen an SWG publish that fixed so many things at once. (without breaking just as many things in the process)
10 minutes after the amazingCombat fix goes live, i bet each one of you here$100 there will be 10,000 new bugs to add to the Top 5 for pistoleers.
Philosopher1976
Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:09 pm
#51
I agree. The Devs agree too ... at least I think that's what their response means.
Randonb wrote:
This speed crap had to be a mistake. A collosal mistake. It doesn't make sense at all.
Dajaan
Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:01 am
#52
hmm well the carabineers cried for more speed too, didn't they? well i guess we will be ending up, having carabineers outspeed us by far - at least that's what murphy told me will happen... .)