Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer. A useless combat profession? Or ?
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TashunkaSapa
Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:53 am
#27
TenshiHanaKinu wrote:
Who whines more? The one who whines or the one who whines about the one whining?
YOU do. In multiple threads. I'm not whining, I'm telling you that you're whining to the wrong people.
I have the ability to enhance my Health & Action and my secondaries, only to be headshotted on an unhealable pool (circumventing my profession) at all ranges by a Riflemen whose abilities make dodge nearly worthless.
Ever heard of a mind buff from a musician or dancer? Brandy? Canape? A freakin' HELMET?
Sounds like you're the sort that just rushes into battle and gets owned. Use your head for something more than a rifle target. Fight on your own terms, not theirs. Close range with thebastage and knock him down, bleed him and kill him. You're far more accurate when moving than a rifleman, and you're far better at close range. Use those to your advantage.
You're making assumptions. Are you a powergamer perhaps?
Now who's making assumptions? I don't need to assume anything - I see your complaints and it's clear that you don't understand what it takes to make a character that can do what you want it to do. As for me, I've mastered onlyfour professions since I began playing last summer... I take things at my own pace. I'm hardly a powergamer - powergamers weren't masochistic enough to master BH when it needed Master Scout, or do Investigation missions on Dathomir before mounts. I play the role I want because it's what I want to play - not because it's more powerful than someone ele's class. However, I don't blame anyone else if I'm not as effective as I want to be. Less time whining, more time thinking and adapting.
Commandos & BH's are also currently more viable in PvP, aren't they? Hmm.
Duh - they should be! They require a larger investment of skill points! A Novice BH has spent 10 more skill points than a Master Pistoleer. And for the record, BH in and of itself is lousy at PvP - to be effective they have to acquire skills from other combat professions as well. You'd be wise to learn from that.
I'm quite aware of what specials work, and how well they work. They are all pure-damage specials, are they not?
I guess you're NOT as aware as you claim to be. Stances I gives you Pistol Melee Defense 1... it knocks down the target. A rifleman who is knocked down is prone, at point-blank range, with a rifle equipped. You can beat him unmercifully.
Since you weren't aware of one of our most powerful specials having an effect that isn't "pure-damage", I wonder how well you know your own profession. Maybe the problem is just that you don't know how to play a Pistoleer effectively?
Bite me. No one made you read it.
Bite yourself - no one made you post it, either. Or did you only post it for the benefit of those who agree with you? If so, that's called "mental masturbation". I'm not here to stroke you, I'm here to tell you we are sick of hearing you complain to US about the problems with a class that WE play, too. Go whine about it somewhere else.
Let me check what forum this is... Hmm.. "Pistoleer". What forum is this?
So, do you think you are enlightening us, or just wasting your breath and our time? Do you think there's a Pistoleer out there who's unaware that many of our specials don't work as they should? What makes you think you know more about this than anyone else? And if not, why tell us what you acknowledge that we already know? And do you think that any of us are going to be able to fix the game, or might you be shouting at the wrong people?
You want to vent, but you get indignant when someone else speaks their mind. Real classy. Look, all I'm trying to tell you is we don't need to be reminded of what needs to be fixed. Maybe the Devs do - there are other sections of this forum for that. But honestly, I don't hold out much hope for them to fix anything for some time to come - all their efforts are focused on JtL (and undoubtedly on the bugs that will accompany it after release) and their unhealthy obsession with Jedi. We just have to play the hand we were dealt.
Message Edited by TashunkaSapa on 07-30-2004 10:58 AM
Shaan'ti Hokai (Kauri) 
TashunkaSapa
Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:01 am
#28
MetallicaJunkie wrote:
Pistoleer used to be good at one on one duelling until they started taking BH skills and got a few things nerfed. Now, pistoleers are in a state where they have to gain certs to new skills and equipment to be viable.
Overall, a very good post - I am unclear on what you mean by this particular passage. Until recently, Pistoleers couldn't really take BH skills, the point investment was prohibitive. Master Pistoleer with BH pistol 4 left one with only 13 points, not enough to pick up anything useful. Sure, there were the occasional characters with this build, but it wasn't common and it wasn't until recently that you start to see Pistoleer/BH hybrids.
I don't recall any Pistoleer nerfs since they relaxed the requirements for Bounty Hunter last month - can you clarify what you meant?
That said, I do agree that if a Pistoleer feels he or she is not as powerful as desired, the means are there to make a character that suits one's desires - whether it's the "Ultimate Gunfighter" who also takes BH Pistol, Dirty Fighting (and maybe Novice Commando), or the "Ultimate Defense" builds that take Teras Kasi and/or Fencer to add defensive mods and skills.
I never used to PvP when I was just an MBH - despite the extensive skill investment, I couldn't compete with the templates that were possible for the other combat classes back then. I quit for a few months, one of the things that brought me back was the relaxation of the BH requirements that freed up 42 more points for me to explore new ways of strengthening my combat effectiveness. I've always liked the mysterious Gunslinger mythos, and I wanted to try and see whata Star Wars equivalent of an Old West gunfightercould do.
Others might wish to try different ways of augmenting the effectivenessof theirPistoleer skills, but I think most of us agree that is the reason why we have 152 pointsleft for discretionary skills.
TenshiHanaKinu
Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:35 pm
#30
Effectiveness with a Pistol. Pure Templates discussed. Not Dabblers
Commando - A Commando masters the Marksman profession. Quite a hefty requirement to go along with the Brawler requirement. However. A Master Marksman learns how to provide ranged support as well as basic mastery of a Carbine, Rifle, and a Pistol. He is reasonably skilled with all 3 of these weapons, but really only a mediocre Pistol wielder by the time he becomes a Master Commando. At the offset they gain the use of an explosive mini-rocket launcher -- the 'launcher pistol.' but after that they don't focus on gaining any more pistol experience. They focus on heavy weapons. The Rocket Launcher, and the Flame Thrower, as well as grenades.
A mediocre Pistol Wielder at best. I'd say 1 tree of Pistol skills, and an additional 1 point towards Pistols for Master Marksman. A pistoleer obviously spends more time with a Pistol than a Commando.
Bounty Hunter - A Bounty Hunter is a jack-of-all-trades kind of guy who learns the art of speed, investigation, stalkingand powerful damage with multiple weapons -- whatever gets the job done to kill his mark and make money. Like Commandos they have to master Marksman, so right off the bat they are dabblers with all 3 weapons -- Rifles, Pistols, and Carbines. However.. they aren't anything special with any of them. At the beginning of Bounty Hunter a BH is certed to use a Scatter Pistol. A spread-shot weapon that is difficult to evade because it ... is a scatter pistol. So we move on: A Bounty Hunter has a tree called "Pistol Specialization" which helps him to wield a pistol effectively. One tree. He's also spending his time learning the Carbine and the LLC. At Master Bounty Hunter they again gain some more expertise with a Pistol. Wee. So... a MBH spends 2 trees on Pistols, an additional point for Master BH and Master Marksman. 2 Trees + 2 points for Pistol use.
Smuggler - A Smuggler meets the same requirements as Pistoleer in the Marksman profession. Pistols IV, heavy sidearms. But instead of investing further into pistols, they spend their time defending themselves and just trying to sneak around with illegal goods and getting "the hell out of dodge" if they get caught. They establish connections with contacts, learn to speak with others in other languages, learn how to make illegal modifications on weapons (Slicing), how to create spices, and then spend time learning how to become an escape artist (Feign Death, Low Blow, Panic Shot, Last Ditch). But they are not warriors, they are not very effective with a Pistol at all. Statistically they are far worse than pistoleers. However, points are not spent on raising accuracy or speed with a pistol... only on using their pistol to escape combat and avoid capture.
Pistoleer - A Pistoleer spends all of their time with a Pistol. That is all they know. They learn the ins and outs of the Pistol... and also learn how to be dexterious with the Pistol, as well as the ability to maximize firing capability with a PIstol by firing multiple shots (Double-Tap), and attacking multiple targets simultaneously. A Pistoleer learns to aim such that they can even disarm their opponent or even hit them hard enough to "stop them in their tracks." A Pistoleer spends time learning how to fire while diving, rolling, or even jumping to his feet, as well as firing on the run, point blank, and in areas.. they learn to be a "Trickshot", a "Quickdraw", and a "Dead-Eye", and a "Gunslinger." The entire profession is dedicated to the knowledge of the Pistol. That is 5 trees worth of skill and a profession mastery.
Additionally, at Novice a Pistoleer is certified to use
- DX-2 Acid Pistol
- Merr-Sonn Q2 ("Republic Blaster") holdout pistol
And then gains certification of the Geonosian Sonic Blaster, which , in the "real" Star Wars universe is an Anti-Jedi weapon. Additionally, the accomplished Pistoleer gains Cert to the "most powerful" pistol available, the DE-10. 
---
In conclusion, a Pistoleer spends MORE POINTS on pistols than any of the other listed professions. By itself, a Pistoleer should, in theory, be better than PURE templates of the other listed professions.
Thank you.
Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 07-30-2004 10:03 PM
Gooney
Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:06 am
#31
Tenshi is absolutly right.
The three elite combat profs should be equal in DPS.
I would add that they should differ in situational dominance. Which implies very different rolls for each profession, these rolls are non-existant today for a number of reasons, which I wont go into here.
This was initially the intention for the combat proffs. Buffs/Armor and broken specials/ contribute to this not being the case.
Pistoleer:
High Speed / Low Damage
Disadvantage, accuracy at long range
Parity, accuracy at medium range
Dominance, accuracy at short range (This is why we have the best native defences vs states AND Pistol Melee Defenses, were meant to get in close!) I wouldnt do it though.
High Speed / Low Damage
Disadvantage, accuracy at long range
Parity, accuracy at medium range
Dominance, accuracy at short range (This is why we have the best native defences vs states AND Pistol Melee Defenses, were meant to get in close!) I wouldnt do it though.
Carbineer
Medium Speed/Medium Damage
Disadvantage, accuracy at long range
Dominance, accuracy at medium range (This is why a Carbineer can set so many states)
Parity, accuracy at short range.
Medium Speed/Medium Damage
Disadvantage, accuracy at long range
Dominance, accuracy at medium range (This is why a Carbineer can set so many states)
Parity, accuracy at short range.
Rifleman
Low Speed/High Damage
Dominance, accuracy at long range (This is why Rifleman can target Mind)
Parity, accuracy at medium range
Low, accuracy at short range
Low Speed/High Damage
Dominance, accuracy at long range (This is why Rifleman can target Mind)
Parity, accuracy at medium range
Low, accuracy at short range
But what happens is that as we level up each class, pistoleer easily hits the speed cap. Which effectivly limits our DPS relative to the others. Our native weapon speeds are very fast in relation to both Carbineers and Riflemen.
A rifleman is soo deadly because they do NOT suffer terrible accuracy at short range, and reach speed cap much later than a pistoleer. Which effectivly multiplies their DPS in relation to Pistoleers. Added on to that very significant advantage is the fact that they can target MIND. Which is bar none the most poorly buffed, and out right unhealable HAM.
A carbineer is more or less in the same boat as us but for different reasons. They do suffer accuracy problems if you get in close to them, still they have the advantage of being able to set some very nice states. And they cap speed later than we do, allowing them a natively larger DPS than us.
There ya have it thats my take on the comparitive worth of the 3 Marksman line Elite Profs.
The whole problem seems to be that despite an Elite combat prof we are ineffective in PvP. PvE I dont think we really can have too many complaints. Ultimately, what kills us in PvP is that we can not effectivly attack the Mind Pool, plain and simple.
Neither can Carbineer, so they too are "ineffective"
I know as a BH I never lost to a Carbineer or a Pistoleer. Why? Simple I could not only place states, but I could hammer away at mind.
I truly believe that they could even out the field by giving each elite prof one special that targeted mind. This would at least make PvP attainable until the fabled Combat Revamp.
-Gooney
MetallicaJunkie
Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:48 am
#32
TashunkaSapa wrote:
MetallicaJunkie wrote:
Pistoleer used to be good at one on one duelling until they started taking BH skills and got a few things nerfed. Now, pistoleers are in a state where they have to gain certs to new skills and equipment to be viable.
Overall, a very good post - I am unclear on what you mean by this particular passage. Until recently, Pistoleers couldn't really take BH skills, the point investment was prohibitive. Master Pistoleer with BH pistol 4 left one with only 13 points, not enough to pick up anything useful. Sure, there were the occasional characters with this build, but it wasn't common and it wasn't until recently that you start to see Pistoleer/BH hybrids.
I don't recall any Pistoleer nerfs since they relaxed the requirements for Bounty Hunter last month - can you clarify what you meant?
Thanks for the compliment, I try my best when posting here. I'll fully explain what I meant and add a little more detail in the meantime.
It was the original pistoleer templates that are responsible for the current state of our profession.
Master pistoleer/Bh pistols 4 were killing guys in under five seconds in PvP because they had 155 accuracy, 119 speed (speed capped) and had the best pistols in the game at the time (scatter pistol and krayted FWG5) This was last year before the 75% damage reduction was applied to PvP and riflemen didn't have a x3 multiplier on HS3 or have +90 speed at master, any rifleman who claims to have been as he is now since launch is a liar, they were "balanced" against their rivals (pistoleer/BH hybrids) in publish 4 (I think) those who were killed so quickly reported duels against pistoleers having an average duration of only a few seconds. Of course, they weren't regular pistoleers but nobody expected the devs to investigate this anyway, they just "corrected the problem" this lead to the FWG5 and Tangle Pistol being nerfed along with a handful of specials and some stats being lowered here and there. Eventually the scatter pistol was also nerfed to be slower and deal less damage. The problem with pistoleer was fixed most effectively when the devs introduced the 75% damage reduction to PvP as we now couldn't deal damage fast enough to kill buffed opponents. BH hybrids continued to dominate through mind damage, but with riflemen dealing more damage at teh same speed, the Pistoleer/BH with his 237 point template was kept in check by the 92 point rifleman.
That counts for our offense nerfs, the history lesson continues with defence.
Some guy a while back had the idea of trying to combine the dodge from Pistoleer, with Fencer. Needless to say that worked fine and he had enough points left over to grab some medic skills. And what did this guy do that was so great? He didn't own PvP because of high defence, he tanked a Giant Canyon Krayt Dragon for his entire buff and killed it SOLO with a DX2 pistol and a Vibroblade. The sepctators confirmed his story and everyone jumped this template, it turns out that he had his own tactics for the krayt and nobody else could repeat his feat, but they sure caused problems in PvP with thatcrazy dodge. This caused pistoleer (because that was the primary combat profession) to take the nerfs again, this time to our defence.
I have been playing this game a long time though, and although I personally was not actively playing the game at the time these templates were created, I was still following the game as all my friends were playing and I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. It was the state of the game at the time that drew me in, everyone was picking up exactly what skills THEY wanted and not what some little blue cube had told them to do, everything soon changed...
The problem that Iam trying to highlight with pistoleer, is because it's been stackable with other professions since launch to give crazy results, we have suffered many nerfs and few fixes. The problem we face now, is that if pistoleer is fixed, then all pistoleer templates that were created out of viability now, will be overpowered after the fix. This is why we're still broken to this day and nothing can happen until combat balance.
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