Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer. A useless combat profession? Or ?
Pagus
Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:29 am
#14
wazzadoin wrote:
Well, umm somethings do stay the same forever. Smuggler... what?
Yes they have had problems for awhile. Same with Ranger and Squad Leader. However, there is a Smuggler revamp scheduled after the GCW changes. It probably won't happen for a long time but unless something drastic causes the devs to change their plans it will still happen.
MagicalHAt
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:29 pm
#15
I think what the problem with pistols was that the devs tried to balance It and failed.
Think about it what if pistoleer did as much damage as a rifleman
Pistols - Fire faster (or they should and or going to be)
Pistols - Have acc while moving (something rifles should not have and carbineers should be half and half),
So they tried to balance it by spreading it out...
Its not that pistols is weak Its that alot of its specials are broken and other proffessions like Rifleman are too powerfull.
Why would a smuggler use a pistol when his proffession gives him nothing but abilitys?
Because It was meant to go with pistoleer.
Rifleman defintely need to fire slower and they should be the worst at kiting meele around
Pistoleers should be great at kiting but horrible at fighting proffessions like rifleman
Carbineer is hard to balance because its sort of a mix
TenshiHanaKinu
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:56 pm
#16
All 3 professions: Riflemen, Carbineer, & Pistoleer should have the same DPS. A pistol should fire fastest, but be weakest (as it is now... weakest.. not fastest, straight out of the box. I'm not talking about weapon speed, I'm talking about Pistoleer +74 speed versus Rifleman +90, and Carbineers getting the shaft in that department also... "unless you combine it with BH"). A Carbine should have an intermediate speed and greater power... while a Rifle should have the highest damage (currently) but slowest speed (exact opposite). That will bring the DPS of the 3 into line.
I mentioned this elsewhere and the Riflemen all complained about Meleers getting too close. No one wants to have a weakness. Do I mind having a weakness ? No. Do I mind not standing a chance? Yes. I can kite Meleers. What do I do when a RIfleman comes around? I try to run. I try to fight. Neither work. Is that a rifleman's fault? Partly. Not completely. I think once the HAM system is switched to the Jedi system it will be all peaches and cream. I will heal all my pools at the cost of an unattackable fourth pool. Will that make me invincible? No. Will it mean Riflemen don't mindlessly say : "Doctor, headshot headshot headshot" "Pistoleer, headshot headshot headshot, X-Profession, headshot headshot headshot"? Yes. I will have the power to survive long enough tosupport my teammates, and they will have the power to protect me.
I'm a group player.
All I want is to be able to help my group. I'm not a powergamer "pwnzer everyone mow through 50 bagillion people on my own I'm so l33t" .
MagicalHAt
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:04 pm
#17
TenshiHanaKinu wrote:
All 3 professions: Riflemen, Carbineer, & Pistoleer should have the same DPS. A pistol should fire fastest, but be weakest (as it is now... weakest.. not fastest, straight out of the box. I'm not talking about weapon speed, I'm talking about Pistoleer +74 speed versus Rifleman +90, and Carbineers getting the shaft in that department also... "unless you combine it with BH"). A Carbine should have an intermediate speed and greater power... while a Rifle should have the highest damage (currently) but slowest speed (exact opposite). That will bring the DPS of the 3 into line.
I mentioned this elsewhere and the Riflemen all complained about Meleers getting too close. No one wants to have a weakness. Do I mind having a weakness ? No. Do I mind not standing a chance? Yes. I can kite Meleers. What do I do when a RIfleman comes around? I try to run. I try to fight. Neither work. Is that a rifleman's fault? Partly. Not completely. I think once the HAM system is switched to the Jedi system it will be all peaches and cream. I will heal all my pools at the cost of an unattackable fourth pool. Will that make me invincible? No. Will it mean Riflemen don't mindlessly say : "Doctor, headshot headshot headshot" "Pistoleer, headshot headshot headshot, X-Profession, headshot headshot headshot"? Yes. I will have the power to survive long enough tosupport my teammates, and they will have the power to protect me.
I'm a group player.
All I want is to be able to help my group. I'm not a powergamer "pwnzer everyone mow through 50 bagillion people on my own I'm so l33t" .
I disagree with same DPS instead I would like to see roles assigned to each weapon
IE rifleman have high offense but DIE very very quickly Pistoleer like fencer is low dps but very hard to hit but when they do get hit it hurts
And carbineer more just inbetween the two.
Edit * Rifleman are a problem to us all... They are grossly over powerd in there current state.
Message Edited by MagicalHAt on 07-29-2004 07:05 PM
Opasa
Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:52 pm
#18
You gotta realize that no matter how much we complain, theyre gonna fix us in the Combat Revamp, whenever that is. I recommend in the meantimeyou getting a DE-10, which is better than the Sonic Blaster. The SB has stun damage, but no armor piercing which really makes it overrated. The DE-10 is energy damage, but AP1 (the kind Composite is). Armor piercing is better than damage type vulnerabilites, and the DE-10 can reach up to really high maxes, which makes for good offense. As for defense, there is a great strategy that I've found to be useful plenty of times: burst run.
PoopyStuff101
Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:13 pm
#19
"theyre gonna fix us in the Combat Revamp"
What makes you think they are going to do something smart?
Their track reccord as of it has been over the last year is something out of a school for people with down syndrome.
Datchery
Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:38 pm
#20
Well they could start by giving us our fair share of defense....as in more than the ridiculously high defenses of the rifleman.
MagicalHAt
Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:49 pm
#21
Datchery wrote:
Well they could start by giving us our fair share of defense....as in more than the ridiculously high defenses of the rifleman.
I think pistoleer needs to be the most defensive of the ranged tree and rifleman the weakest
And carbineer in the middle....
I also feel dps should reflect that though
But still if a meele gets close to a ranged proffession a meele should be able to win...
Pistoleer vs TKM at 10m distance apart should be a pretty good fight any thing over 10 and the meele needs to play smart and duck around a building or something and get the ranged guy to come to him.
Rifleman vs TKM at 30m+ Distance should be rifle man winning
TashunkaSapa
Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:36 am
#22
Tenshi, doesn't it ever get old?
How many threads do we have to hear this same old broken record from you?
You have 250 skill points for a reason - USE THEM. If you expect to have the be-all-end-all of combat with a measly investment of 92 skill points, you've got another thing coming. A commando or bounty hunter has spent that much before they even pick up novice.
But complaining because a Doctor/Pistoleer isn't as powerful as someone that dabbles in something else is just stupid.
Yes, some of our specials are broker - but the ones that aren't broken work very well.
Why should you "have to" add Smuggler or BH? You don't - unless you want to improve your existing skills. Don't even try to say that it's logical that a Pistoleer would be better with pistols than a Pistoleer that ALSO has BH or Smuggler training.
We've heard it all - yes, you're preaching to the choir and some of the choir are starting to get annoyed by it. All we can do is wait for the fix, just like every other one of the many combat professions out there. Don't think for a moment that Bounty Hunters and Smugglers don't have bigger problems that affect the class more significantly than just what specials work.
Imagine Pistoleers having their mission pay cut by a factor of 10 because another class is exploiting it... or having to devote an entire tree to something that's not at all useful to the profession. Pistoleers can still use pistols pretty well, unlike Smugglers who don't really get to "smuggle" anything.
Seriously, you need some perspective.
Shaan'ti Hokai (Kauri) 
TenshiHanaKinu
Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:35 am
#23
Opasa wrote:
As for defense, there is a great strategy that I've found to be useful plenty of times: burst run.
I've tried that ... I still try that. They sometimes just stop, wait for combat to end. Pull out the bike. Fly in range, shoot again. I try to pull my bike, too, but by that time it's too late. That 21 seconds just doesn't come soon enough. 
Or they just burstrun at the same time, and just spam headshot from wherever they are. They may miss once.. maybe twice.. but the end will come. It's just a matter of whether or not you want to give up hope, or pray that you aren't TEFed and find a player house ... or there is an elevator or an ocean nearby.
Those're my defenses. They're all I have.
---
As for the DE-10... I was given one as a gift. 190 - 422 with the powerup it has on it. 4.3 speed, though. As a Master Pistoler I can't wield it effectively (hah). I'm looking to get a speed tape to help that.. and to hopefully someday loot pieces to make a better one with hopefully a better speed.
Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 07-30-2004 05:40 AM
MetallicaJunkie
Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:56 am
#24
I feel your pain. While you make very valid points for the improvement of the pistoleer profession, and while in certain situations it is a "useless" combat profession, in other situations it more than effective, possibly better than the others. The problems with pistoleer are plain to see.
Disclaimer, all these situations are hyperthetical.
Useless PvEsituation - loot hunting. The guild are going on a hunt to the DWB for mando armour, to their dismay all they get is a DE-10 pistol schematic and barrels. They decide to do you a favour and make you the pistol, so they go and hunt krayt dragons for the damage enhancing tissues. Seeing as you're a pistoleer, your damage output against such creatures as Super Battle Droids and Krayt Dragons is is close to nil as you can get. I think your damage per shot against an ancient krayt with a 200 damage republic and stoppingshot is about 270 on a giant canyon and 46 and on an ancient, I haven't seen the SBD, but I know it's comparable in armour and resists to krayt, so same damage there, ish. A pistoleer simply cannot fight that end of PvE, so you're only use there is as a medic.
Useless PvP situation - Guild wars. The guild are at war and under attack, the pure pistoleer lacks the speed and damage output to take out the enemy fast enough, unfortunately nobody fights war unbuffed anymore, so without taking BH, the pistoleer can do little.
These situations are taking from personal experience
Useful PvE situation - Run in/run out. Our dodge and other defence, such as it is, is more than adequate to allow us to run in and out of combat situations, perhaps to grab loot, hit the door switch or heal a fallen comrade before the deathblow. When I was a pistoleer medic I was invaluable because of my ability to run in and hit that last minute heal on the tank and get back out without dying. We actually have a lot of specials that work well in a support capacity such as fanshot to cover the tank and drop those enemies a little faster before he starts to drop.
Useful PvP situation - Cloak and Dagger. Pistoleer used to be good at one on one duelling until they started taking BH skills and got a few things nerfed. Now, pistoleers are in a state where they have to gain certs to new skills and equipment to be viable. I am certed for the the greatest pistoleer weapon of them all, local environment. As a pistoleer, only a few weeks back I managed to kill 6 rebels out of a 20 man group ALONE outside Coronet Starport. How did I do it? Granted the combat medic who ran in first only to be killed in under 5secs did a lot of work with the poisons he managed to throw, but I ran in using the group tef to deathblow one of incapped rebels and then simply ran around inside their own group picking off the rest. Kill 4 poisoned rebels (they had no mind and they all got incapped by the damage spill from fanshot) and I even managed to kill a non-poisoned TKM while KD/dizzy thanks our combat equilibrium and finished him off with a pistolwhip/stoppingshot combo, with my ham running low I was forced to run but not before dropping another of the weakened rebels with stoppingshot and hitting my /deathblow hotkey again. I ran back to my guild and I wasn't followed far by the group despite a 14 to one advantage, who knows what I might be trying to pull this time? Moral is, forget the professions strengths and weaknesses, if you're not willing to do something a little different and think outside the box a little in PvP, you're not going to win as a pistoleer simply due to the fact that we are a broken combat profession with little value. BTW, I was speedcapped thanks to tapes from a guildie at the time, but there is no reason why my tactics can't work for everyone.
As for those who are complaining about the professions weaknesses, I too am frustrated. But I look at it this way, while we're being patient and waiting to be fixed, we could try to develop new tactics to become viable or at least supportive of our comrades, or we could pick up other professions for a while or even stack BH and smuggler, whatever it takes to get by.
Couple more points. DPS should NOT be equal between professions, I'll admit that some professions require a higher DPS output but the professions need to have roles in combat. If DPS was to be the same between all professions, combat would be ruined, we need to choose our profession for real reasons and not what graphic we get, I agree that we need to be just as viable in combat than riflemen, but we should gain that viability via the defence route, not offence. Remember that any fixes done to us to make us more viable have consequences on the game balance from not only ourselves, but smuggler, commandos and bounty hunters, all of which undoubtedly dabble in a little pistoleer or even master it completely. All of those professions would benefit more from extra defence than offence and so would we.
That's my bit, flame me if you wish, I know I'm making sense here.
YayAreaRider
Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:59 am
#25
I'm a pistoleer at heart, I just love the lore of them I guess. Tho I also have TKM and smuggler to augment my pistol skills, the main guns I use in PvP are mind dot guns. Sadly the only pistol specials I find myself using are healthshot2 & PMD1, along the smuggler specials last ditch and low blow, last ditch gets used the most if my target happens to have a weakness to a particular damage type.
As much as I love pistols, I've come to notice you need some really really nice ones just to compete, along with some speed tapes if you dont have any of the BH tree. I also hate the fact that pistols are just a sideshow to another profession like smuggler.
I have to disagree with what Opasa said about the DE-10 being the best choice, I have a 721max dmg DE-10 (pup'd) and a 676max dmg geo (pup'd) and the geo always seems to tear them down quicker. Even the 532max damage geo I have does a better job than that DE-10. Everyone seems to have high energy resists on their armor, not to mention the DE-10s slow speed.
We're on the same server, I'd be happy to show ya my arsenal I use to take down rifleman.
Right now DoTs rule, get some DoT guns.
Agerman
As much as I love pistols, I've come to notice you need some really really nice ones just to compete, along with some speed tapes if you dont have any of the BH tree. I also hate the fact that pistols are just a sideshow to another profession like smuggler.
I have to disagree with what Opasa said about the DE-10 being the best choice, I have a 721max dmg DE-10 (pup'd) and a 676max dmg geo (pup'd) and the geo always seems to tear them down quicker. Even the 532max damage geo I have does a better job than that DE-10. Everyone seems to have high energy resists on their armor, not to mention the DE-10s slow speed.
We're on the same server, I'd be happy to show ya my arsenal I use to take down rifleman.
Right now DoTs rule, get some DoT guns.
Agerman
trajen2
Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:29 am
#26
You know whats sad? I've been a pistoleer for quite some time. . .broken specials and all. I recently dropped Doc to become a CM so AT LEAST I could be somewhat useful in PvP. So my new template is Master Pistoleer/Master CM. . .this takes ALL but 4 of my SP.
I hear today that Docs are now gonna be able to give disease/poison resistance buffs and AREA cures basically making my second profession useless. Its sad that the devs can devote time to kill a profession (CM) by enhancing an already good profession (Doc). . .while completely ignoring a truly broken professions such as pistoleer. . .
Inat
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