Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Defensive Template & Dodge Caps
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trabickle
Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:17 pm
#14
doc 4030 is better at dealing with dizzy KD than any defenses. There are macros you can run (I thought everyone knew these) that can make you stand and cure over and over, it usually only takes a couple times to work. Also you can cure dizzy as soon as it lands on you to avoid it in the first place. You can't meditate during a fight, and meditating takes forever to get rid of the nasty stuff. Plus you can't meditate off fires... so there ya go.
Vriko
Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:39 pm
#15
Ok, here's my rationale for the heavy defenses vs. picking up Medic skills.
If you've got defenses out the wazoo, you're MUCH LESS SUSCEPTIBLE to even being HIT. This means less bleeds and not getting down to the position where you need to pop a stim. I really think that the trade-off to get Dodge, Melee Defense, and Ranged Defense to capped/almost capped instead of having Medic is the best decision. My opinion.
If you've got defenses out the wazoo, you're MUCH LESS SUSCEPTIBLE to even being HIT. This means less bleeds and not getting down to the position where you need to pop a stim. I really think that the trade-off to get Dodge, Melee Defense, and Ranged Defense to capped/almost capped instead of having Medic is the best decision. My opinion.
Uthyr
Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:57 pm
#16
Your point is well-taken, Vriko, and I was in fact thinking that this would be a good counter-argument when I made my commentsearlier 
I agree, if you are defensive enough to rarely get hit, then you will (theoretically) rarely need to heal yourself. Having never played as a full-fledged TKM (just a TK novice), I can't really speak to how frequently a TKM gets into situations where he really needs medic healing to be able to stay alive. I havefought alongside of TKMs though who got themselves killed in the heat of battle (whereI stayed alive fighting the same enemies) who most certainly would have survived if they could have instantly healed themselves. I suppose it's a question ofhow you prefer to allocate your skill points and what your playing style is. Another advantage of being a medic is that you can keep your group-mates alive.
I agree, if you are defensive enough to rarely get hit, then you will (theoretically) rarely need to heal yourself. Having never played as a full-fledged TKM (just a TK novice), I can't really speak to how frequently a TKM gets into situations where he really needs medic healing to be able to stay alive. I havefought alongside of TKMs though who got themselves killed in the heat of battle (whereI stayed alive fighting the same enemies) who most certainly would have survived if they could have instantly healed themselves. I suppose it's a question ofhow you prefer to allocate your skill points and what your playing style is. Another advantage of being a medic is that you can keep your group-mates alive.That being said, I do quite frequently find myself wishing that I currentlyhad TKA skills to compliment my Master Pistoleer. You guys do have an impressive template.
trabickle
Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:33 pm
#17
Defenses and no Doc skills would be the best for a pve template, but DEFINATELY not PvP. Poisons/Fires/Disease will kill you every time. Any noob who loots a good dot would rule a server if it didnt have people with doc. All it takes is one hit to apply a nasty fire or poison, and since infinite defense stacking is gone you WILL get hit at least once. The devs have even said that they assume that all high end pvp'ers will incorporate doc into their template.
And even if your server doesnt have many people running around with good dots you should still consider adding doc. Anyone with novice brawler who is smart will use intimidate right away during a battle, dropping your damage immensely. You can cure that away instantly with doc, along with the other states that suck: Stun, Blind, Dizzy.
Vriko
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:51 am
#18
Samath wrote:
trabickle wrote:if you are doing this for pvp you should be Master Pistoleer, Smuggler 0040, and Doc 4030. You wont need to worry about slightly better defenses when you can cure those all away.I don't get how anyone could PvP without doc nowadays. No matter how good you may be, or how good your equipment, one decent DOT and you are done for.
You can't cure Dizzy+Knockdown. BIG PROBLEM.
I thought you could cure the dizzy state with Doc
What good does it do you if you're already on the ground flopping like a fish? None. A TKM will be wailing on you with Unarmed Hit 3 and you'll be dead before you can cure yourself.
garyttu wrote:
Vriko wrote:
1) Yes, Dodge caps at +125. So does Melee and Ranged defenses
2) My recommendation:
- Master Pistoleer, Dirty Fighting IV (you already have)
- Fencer 4400 -- Caps Dodge, nearly caps Melee Defense, gives insane Defense vs. Knockdown
- TKA 4301 -- Full Meditation abilities, caps Melee Defense, Melee Mitigation 2, More State Def.s
- Novice Medic + 9 skill points of Medic skills
Combined with your pistol speed attachments and a DE-10, you'll have awesome damage output and CRAZY Melee and state defenses. Also, Meditation is something I will always recommend. I couldn't live without it.
Best of luck!Vriko,
After messing with the template builder, I came to the same conclusions and your recommendation sounds like the one I'm gonna try out. Thanks for taking the time to provide your comments - they helped out greatly!
I should mention that I also have FS ranged accuracy (and eventually will probably spend more on FS skills - but thats not important right now). I imagine I will at least take Fencer 4400 and TKA 4301. For the time being with the template above, I will only have 5 pts to spend if I take novice medic. Is it still worth it since I will only get Stims 2 at that level? Another option seems to be to take 4304 in TKA since that will get me close to max Ranged Defense (+121 vs. +81) but that still may not be worth it due to most pvp being melee anyway. Any thoughts on where to spend these last 20 skill pts?
Frankly, I wouldn't even pick up Medic unless you really want it. The Meditation skills from TKA will pretty much take care of any after-battle healing you need. The only real reason to have it is if you run into trouble in the middle of a battle. If you have buffs and armor, however, any trouble you run into will require more help than some Stim Bs will provide. So Medic isn't really worth the investment, in my opinion. The FS skills would probably be the best place to put your extra skill points. Either that, or like you said, pick up the entire TKA Precision Striking tree. The added Ranged Defense would be nice for when you encounter someone with ranged weapons in PvP, which I guess isn't very often anymore. Other than that, dump all of your skill points into FS.
This makes me wish I was Force Sensitive!
garyttu
Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:28 pm
#19
The problem I see with adding doc vs. defenses is:
1) Mind weakness - Same vulnerability as everyone else but you're gonna get hit here so much more without the defenses. It also seems everyone in pvp goes for it anyway.
2) Dizzy/KD- Yes I know you can heal dizzy, but you can't heal it when your KD'ed if they do that to you first right?
Just trying to open up the debate a little more since i'm considering going doc now instead and i'm analyzing its weaknesses vs. the defense template...
Big-G
trabickle
Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:17 pm
#20
Food, equipment, and buffs more than makes up for any lack of defenses. a good helmet, 2x Brandy, Dodge food, Synthsteak, PSG, Ent buffs, Muon if you need it, and Blue Milk if you need it.
Dots, states, and Dizzy/KD are the most consistent ways to beat someone nowadays and you will be able to manage those with Doc.
The dizzy kd can be cured from the ground with an easy macro.
Its the same reasoning that makes having docdesirable for high endloot-whoring. Soloing an elder without the ability to control the states she puts on you puts you at a disadvantage from the get go.
On my server almost every pvper has doc in their template (those that havent quit that is), and its easy to tell when you come across someone who doesnt.
Message Edited by trabickle on 12-08-2004 06:23 PM
garyttu
Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:05 pm
#21
another problem is I have 4 skill pts in FSranged accuracy so I can't do pistoleer/smuggler df4/doc 4030...without dropping something so it may be a moot point 
Message Edited by garyttu on 12-09-2004 12:05 AM
Message Edited by garyttu on 12-09-2004 12:07 AM
DarthNkari
Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:24 am
#22
i would stay away from medic
also, instead of tka just put those points into fencer
the fencer 4xxx is good in pve but extra defenses dont help a whole lot in pvp
the fencer xx4x gives melee mitigation which you lack otherwise
fencer x4xx gives very good state mods to stack with the pistoleer mods
so fencer x44x is good if you can afford it, and medic is not needed
medic is not needed because you should just plan on outdamaging your opponent. you would only need to heal if they can outdamage you, and if they can outdamage you then healing really isnt gonna solve the problem
and the general concensus is that dodge caps at 125
garyttu
Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:42 am
#23
Well I'm going Master Pistoleer (w/ Speed Cap attachments), Fencer 4/4/0/0, TKM 4/3/0/1 / FS Ranged Accuracy....
I'll try doctor if it doesn't end up working out but i'm almost here anyway...
With this template I get:
Defense Vs. Blind +50
Defense Vs. Dizzy +45
Defense Vs. Knockdown +120
Defense Vs. Posture Change (Down) +100
Defense Vs. Stun +55
Defensive Acuity +30
Dodge +135
Melee Defense +131
Defense Vs. Dizzy +45
Defense Vs. Knockdown +120
Defense Vs. Posture Change (Down) +100
Defense Vs. Stun +55
Defensive Acuity +30
Dodge +135
Melee Defense +131
Ranged Defense +81
Melee Mitigation 2
Ranged Mitigation 3
This leaves me 20 pts to play with:
1) TKM 4/3/0/4 - +121 to Ranged Defense vs. +81
2) Fencer 4/4/4/0 - +20 Defense vs. Intimidate, +90 Defense vs. Blind, +85 Defense vs. Dizzy
3) Novice Medic
Thoughts...? I'll probably end up using these extra points for FS down the road but which of these is best and are
there other options?
Message Edited by garyttu on 12-09-2004 09:56 AM
trabickle
Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:51 pm
#24
DarthNkari wrote:
i would stay away from medic
also, instead of tka just put those points into fencer
the fencer 4xxx is good in pve but extra defenses dont help a whole lot in pvp
the fencer xx4x gives melee mitigation which you lack otherwise
fencer x4xx gives very good state mods to stack with the pistoleer mods
so fencer x44x is good if you can afford it, and medic is not needed
medic is not needed because you should just plan on outdamaging your opponent. you would only need to heal if they can outdamage you, and if they can outdamage you then healing really isnt gonna solve the problem
and the general concensus is that dodge caps at 125
Pistoleer/fencer isn't going to outdamage many other profs. The best pistol ever wouldnt be much better than an above-average rifle. Also, I don't know about your serverbut pvp isn't usually 1 vs 1. So you will have to assume you will take more damage than you give. Having Doc in my template makes me able to solo 5+ people who dont have doc, just because I have looted some great dots. And if you ever need to run from a bad fight doc will keep you alive more often than not. Pistoleer is already a gimped prof, but if you want to give yourself the best chance to be competative you have to do what the other top pvpers do (not saying I am, since i have to use dots :smileywink
and add doc.
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