Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Results from First Round of Defense Mod Tests
It also confirm my own impressions (but wasn't really testing it) : it takes me much more tries to KD someone wearing an armor than someone that doesn't...which leads us to another concern because of Armor Piercing our weapons have.
The stackability of bonuses is to test aswell, I think it does stack but requirement is to handle at least one of the meant weapons. Not sure and would be very hard to state.
But I clearly think the more dmg you make, you better chances you have to succesfully change your oponent state (KD, posture down, etc...).
I'm actually very happy that dodges don't stack. If they did, people would start making the same template over and over. This way, we can move up the lines to get what pistol skills we want then use our points in other areas.
Great job on the tests Phil!
Inhocmark wrote:
I'm actually very happy that dodges don't stack. If they did, people would start making the same template over and over. This way, we can move up the lines to get what pistol skills we want then use our points in other areas.
Great job on the tests Phil!
Umm so everyone goes Pistol+ BH / Smuggler / Doc instead of having the option to goFencer / TKA etc. People already do the same template over and over, if anything having defences stack would mean there were less people with the exact same spec.
I'm sorry but I don't see how ruling out defensive templates is great, when you don't do the same with offensive templates. (This isn't a call for a nerf on anyone, far from it, I wouldjust like to see defensive bonuses stackso a defensivespec that doens't include Doctor is viable.)
I would hardly call this data conclusive, unfortunately. A few things that present problems: you dodged at all without the pistol. If dodge from pistoleer wasn't being counted, you should have dodged 0 times, right? Defending against knockdown *more often* with a pistol unequipped when the opponent uses a different weapon tells me something more than ignoring the stat without the pistol equipped is going on. If you had 0 defense vs. KD without the pistol equipped, you should have been knocked down on the first try virtually every try. To make this test more conclusive you should include data from a control group containing a newb character with no skills at all.
Let's not jump the gun and say unequivocally thatdefenses don't stack... too many other things suggest that they do. These tests are interesting, and I'm glad they have been done, but I think at best they show that we still do not understand how these mods work.
First off, great job Phil. The data you got is invaluable.
Second, seems I disagree with most here,in that Ido notwant defenses stacking from somewhere else. I'dliketo limit all offensive bonuses and specialsas well from cross-profession stacking but that may be wishful thinking.
Third, I do agree with Jiawa that I'd like to see a test done with newbie toon if possible. I know it's more work since you probably did these tests on live rather than TC (where I think you can have 3 toons now), but maybe you'll get your TC access soon...
Thank you again for all your hard work though. These kinds of tests are always valuable to the community.
Seflyn wrote:
Inhocmark wrote:
I'm actually very happy that dodges don't stack. If they did, people would start making the same template over and over. This way, we can move up the lines to get what pistol skills we want then use our points in other areas.
Great job on the tests Phil!
Umm so everyone goes Pistol+ BH / Smuggler / Doc instead of having the option to goFencer / TKA etc. People already do the same template over and over, if anything having defences stack would mean there were less people with the exact same spec.
I'm sorry but I don't see how ruling out defensive templates is great, when you don't do the same with offensive templates. (This isn't a call for a nerf on anyone, far from it, I wouldjust like to see defensive bonuses stackso a defensivespec that doens't include Doctor is viable.)
Not everyone 
I just don't think they should stack. Fighting with an Epee is a lot different than fighting with a pistol, your balance is a lot different.
And if they did stack you'd see them fixed up if people were dodging everything.
Inhocmark wrote:
Seflyn wrote:
Umm so everyone goes Pistol+ BH / Smuggler / Doc instead of having the option to goFencer / TKA etc. People already do the same template over and over, if anything having defences stack would mean there were less people with the exact same spec.
I'm sorry but I don't see how ruling out defensive templates is great, when you don't do the same with offensive templates. (This isn't a call for a nerf on anyone, far from it, I wouldjust like to see defensive bonuses stackso a defensivespec that doens't include Doctor is viable.)
Not everyone
I just don't think they should stack. Fighting with an Epee is a lot different than fighting with a pistol, your balance is a lot different.
And if they did stack you'd see them fixed up if people were dodging everything.
I guess we just can't win on how to frame our arguments. Sometimes, people bring realism into this to make their point, saying that "It's like this in the real world, so we should do it in-game." Other times, people say "It's a game, and we need to make this work as a game,so real life science and physics don't have anything to do with it."
In this instance, I'm leaning towards that latter position - we need to think about this as a game mechanic, not in terms of actual real-world combat and balance.
Defensive stacking is a great idea becauseit encourages us to pick and choose skills from as many different professions as we're able. We get to take several pieces of cloth together and make a shirt, rather than just cut it from a single piece of fabric. If weeliminate skillstacking, why bother with having a skill-based game rather than a class-based system? We'd be pigeonholing people into one combat profession if we don't allow stacking; you almost always have a go-to weapon that gives you the best stats, and if you don't getbetterbonuses from other weapons, you'll just use the go-to weapon all the time. That's boring, especially if you have some great extra skills.
For instance, I'm a Master Pistoleer. I picked up the Balance Conditioning line from TKA to get the state defenses, primarily. I could have gotten more firepower in a pistol-related profession like Bounty Hunter, but instead I wanted defensive skills to protect myself and my friends in a more effective way.IfI could have stacked pistol attack mods, why shouldn't i be able to stack combat defense mods? There's a give and take - if I pick up defensive skills, I don't get to pick up offensive skills. To me, that's what a skill-based system is all about - you custom-make your character based on your own goals rather than follow a strict template.
I'm also a Master Smuggler. I have several special moves that I use with a pistol. Should that not be allowed? Should I not be able to use my special Smuggler moves because I'm a Pistoleer? Should my Pistoleer speed and accuracy not apply to Smuggler moves? How to we reconcile all of this?
Is the point of the combat professions in SWG to master one combat profession and skip the rest? Not from what I gather. That's why stacking has to be allowed. If we want to customize characters and not all make our characters from the same cookie cutter, we need stacking. There are better ways to deal with potential imbalances that are better than just segregating professions from one another. Allow skills to cross-pollinate and watch SWG blossom.
Wrong. Actually you can dodge/counterattack/whatever without having ANY points in them. You just do it rarely. Here's how you can test it for yourself. Make an opponent who is already inaccurate -blind- and then watch the combat spam. You'll see some dodges and counterattacks even if your character has no Dodge or Counterattack mods.
_Macabre_ wrote:
I would hardly call this data conclusive, unfortunately. A few things that present problems: you dodged at all without the pistol. If dodge from pistoleer wasn't being counted, you should have dodged 0 times, right?
Well knockdown doesn't always work on the first try, even against mobs. There is probablya lot going on behind the scenes with knockdown -- for instance different specials might have a varying chance to knock you down, etc. As I said in the initial post, more tests are needed to understand Defense v. Knockdown better. If you feel strongly about this, I urge you to run some tests yourself. It takes a long time to do, so relying solely on me means that you'll have to be patient while you wait for me to test some more.
_Macabre_ wrote:
If you had 0 defense vs. KD without the pistol equipped, you should have been knocked down on the first try virtually every try. To make this test more conclusive you should include data from a control group containing a newb character with no skills at all.
I didn't say unequivocally that defenses don't stack -- I said that it's likely that they don't, given that our Dodge modifiers (and probably our Defense v. Knockdown modifiers) don't work unless a pistol is equipped. What else suggests to you that defenses DO stack? If you've run some tests yourself, let me know. One possibility is that only TKA bonuses stack with other professions, since they don't have a weapon that the defenses can be keyed to. Feel free to run your own tests ... the more data, the better. On my end, I'll do more testing in upcoming weekends.
_Macabre_ wrote:
Let's not jump the gun and say unequivocally thatdefenses don't stack... too many other things suggest that they do. These tests are interesting, and I'm glad they have been done, but I think at best they show that we still do not understand how these mods work.
Those who say defenses should stack...here is the problem...in order to balance the game you either have to have lousey defenses for everyone that can stack or non-stackable defenses. I say this because I saw very very clearly what happened in Beta and why the tuned down defense initially in the first place.
The problem is unless you cap or prevent stacking, characters get way way too powerful. How powerful? Take down a lair of ancient Rancors solo with no pet powerful....or last for 30 minutes in PvP combat cause you can't get hit powerful.
Jedi maybe can have that kinda of power..but they have it at the cost of being hunted and with limited lives.
If you want stackable defenses, thats fine...but then expect defenses to get nerfed across the board to individual professions again unless they are either not stackable, or there is some sort of cap on the benefits.
SolrFlare wrote:
Those who say defenses should stack...here is the problem...in order to balance the game you either have to have lousey defenses for everyone that can stack or non-stackable defenses. I say this because I saw very very clearly what happened in Beta and why the tuned down defense initially in the first place.
The problem is unless you cap or prevent stacking, characters get way way too powerful. How powerful? Take down a lair of ancient Rancors solo with no pet powerful....or last for 30 minutes in PvP combat cause you can't get hit powerful.
Jedi maybe can have that kinda of power..but they have it at the cost of being hunted and with limited lives.
If you want stackable defenses, thats fine...but then expect defenses to get nerfed across the board to individual professions again unless they are either not stackable, or there is some sort of cap on the benefits.
How isstacking knockdown defence overpowered? It simply means you have spent the points to counter a single type of attack, I can see why there might be a need to stop people from obtaining 200 dodge, but not 100 KD defence. (Most of the state defences would have very little impact on PvE IMO and 100 KD defence isn't going to save you from that Flame DOT.)
while dodge might not stack things like ranged and melee defense almost have to or they very well should since you can pickup melee/ranged defense in the ranged support line of Marksman.
Also The master box of say commando adds it and that would be alot of weapons to consider...
Master Bounty Hunter as well.
Come to think of it you can get generalized Defense vs. Stun from say a bio-engineered segment
This leads me to believe that Defense and Defense vs stack no matter where you get them from.
But block/counterattack/dodge/defense acuity might be tied to the weapon they are paired with
OMG CIRCLE THE WAGONS EVERYBODY
A bounty hunter figured out that a brawler can tank better after the patch!
FYI, pistoleers dodge better when a pistol is equipped... and you lose brawler toughness and other defenses when you equip a pistol. What you are watching is how powerful brawlers (esp Swordsman and Fencers) have become.