Pistoleer Archive
Thread: To all the die hard 100% Pistol users out there!
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RenKesson
Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:12 am
#14
I see the Pistoleer Prof as the core or backbone of all Pistol Hybrid Professions. Anyone taking Smuggler alone should not be as good or as efficient with their weapons as a Pistoleer would be. I would say the same for Bounty Hunters. Smuggler is a Hybrid Profession. They get more things than just Pistol specials too, as you know. They can make more money off terminals, slice weapons for more money, sell spice for more money, trade FP for more money. They're underworld salesmen with some nasty Pistol tricks.
Smuggler was never meant to stand on its own against a Pistoleer, and while I know you're not suggesting that, Tern, we have to be careful how much we give in this regard. Let's face it, most Smugglers will take Pistoleer to make the most of their Dirty Fighting skills. But think of Smuggler pistol skills as a different way of learning to use a Pistol. Rather than refining your technique, honing your skills, training your gun hand to line up with your master eye without even thinking about it, practicing your quickdraw and conditioning your trigger-finger for maximum speed and accuracy -- all those things that make one a master Pistoleer -- a Smuggler instead learns to use pistol techniques born out of desperate need in times of great danger, when he's backed into a corner and has nowhere to run.
A Smuggler is a different kind of gunfighter altogether. His moves are less refined, more instinctive, less controlled, more explosive; more bluff than bite soemtimes. However, if he wanted to combine his "dirty fighting" tactics with the refined, precise, controlled disciplines and exercises of a Pistoleer, he would gain the benefits of that on top of what he's already learned on the streets.
The Novice Pistoleer box (as with the Novice Carbineer and Rifleman boxes) grants +5 Speed, and +5 Accuracy. I guess I've always found this bonus to be a little low for all three professions, considering the Novice is now just setting himself apart from a basic Marksman with his weapon, and is beginning to study the advanced techniques of his chosen martial field. Up until now, a the Marksman Pistol trees have given the would-be Pistoleer +10 Accuracy, +5 Speed at each level. If what you're suggesting is to increase the Speed and Accuracy bonuses from the Novice Pistoleer box for the benefit of Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, I could go along with that, up to perhaps +20 Accuracy, +20 Speed (although I think that +15 Acc, +10 Speed would be more appropriate to be honest.) This would be a significantly higher boost than the previous skill boxes have given, and really set a Novice Pistoleer apart from a Marksman.
However, again the problem arises of such a huge boost for such a low cost. It costs 415k Combat Experience and 14 Skill Points in the Pistol Stances tree to gain +24 Spd right now. To have a boost of more than +10 Speed would seem to fly in the face of that, and to give a Smuggler/Pistoleer-dabbler +15 or +20 Speed for just 125k Pistol Exp and 6 SPs seems too much in my mind. If it were increased to +15 Accuracy, +10 Speed, that I could live with, but not more. And in any case, if these mods were to be adjusted in the Pistoleer profession, they'd need to be adjusted in the Rifleman and Carbineer professions as well.
Ternque01
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:34 am
#15
Well RenKesson, if you take all the mods from the BH pistol line and put them into Pistoleer, you would still be able to grant +20 speed/accuracy in the Novice Pistoleer box and still have plenty of skillpoints to administer in the rest of the profession.
Your case that giving such high mods for a novice, whilesignificantly smaller mods are given for more cost in the higher parts of pistoleer, is a bad thing isn't something I agree with. Actually learning skills in "real life" is just like this. In studying a martial art, you might figure quite alot out in a short period of time, yet go 10 years without learning at the same quick pace. It does make sense, and it doesn't fly in the face of common sense. In addition, people just learning a skill learn quite alot when they jus start out. The learning curve is steep. After years of refinement, then others may start to recognize that person as a master of that subject.
If you were to take all the BH mods and put them into pistoleer, you would find you can grant this boost to novices while even still boosting the mods you get at each level in pistoleer. I don't see a problem with doing so.
RenKesson
Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:06 am
#16
First, just like in real life, what you learn (the better your skill mods) is balanced by the amount of time and effort you put into learning it. The more SP/XP you spend, the better the mod you should get. This isn't always followed in SWG since SP costs decrease as you go up in the trees, but exp costs increase.
If you take all the BH Pistol Speed and Accuracy mods and put them into Pistoleer (+50 Acc/Speed) and put 15 of those into the Novice Skill box (for a total of +20 Acc/Speed), that'd leave you with +35 to put in the rest of the Pistoleer profession (+10 @ Stances I, +10 @ Stances
II, +10 @ Stances III, +15 @ Stances IV) So Pistol Stances tree Speed mods would look like:
Novice Pistoleer - Pistol Speed +20 Speed
Stances I - Pistol Speed +16
Stances II - Pistol Speed +16
Stances III - Pistol Speed +16
Stances IV - Pistol Speed +26
Master Pistoleer - Pistol Speed +20
Novice Pistoleer - +20 Pistol Accuracy
Marksmanship I - +20 Pistol Accuracy
Marksmanship II - +15 Pistol Accuracy
Marksmanship III - +20 Pistol Accuracy
Marksmanship IV - +20 Pistol Accuracy
Master Pistoleer - +10 Pistol Accuracy
If I understand you, this is what you are suggesting for the BH Pistol mods: put them all in the Pistoleer tree. Do you see how the Master Pistoleer bonuses are clearly less significant when compared with the rest of the skill boxes? The Master skill box is less desireable than the Novice Pistoleer box. That should never be the case, in my opinion. That Master box is the final reward for all your hard work (even though its 320 Apprenticeship Experience Points are easier to obtain than 450K Pistol XP). It's not even worth getting Master Pistoleer for many people because they've already capped Speed and +10 Accuracy (while it might give you an edge in PvP) won't be of significant worth in PvE.
And still, Novice Pistoleer is worth more than Master Pistoleer! This kind of setup is just screaming, "Dabble in Pistoleer, please!"
Learning curve is represented in this game by increasing exp requirements. That's why you can spend twice as long on Marksmanship IV as you did on Novice Pistoleer and still not have achieved anything.
I think we're going to continue to disagree on this issue. We'll just have to see what the Devs cook up for us in the CURB. 
Ternque01
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:20 pm
#17
I think you are taking what I am saying the wrong way. You have constructed a whole profession's skilltrees incorrectly and not taken into account that the speed equation will change with the CU. You also fail to mention that accuracy isn't victim to the poor speed equation either.
You have contructed a very misleading representation of what I am proposing, and judging those poor design desicions that YOU made, hehe.
I would suggest to put the +20 speed/accuracy into the novice box. THEN put slightly higher rewards for each box of SpecialAbilities (speed)and Marksmanship (accuracy). With the large amount of accuracy and speed left over, you could put it into the Master box.... granting the grand prize that you seem particularly fond of desiring.
It is obvious that such a small change that could rectify CORE problems with the Pistoleer profession isn't taking a liking to your mind. That is fine, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
RenKesson
Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:58 pm
#18
*shrug*
Rectifying the CORE systems of the Pistoleer profession is what we all do here. There's no other reason for me to be here. In the future, before criticizing my misrepresentations of your thoughts, kindly represent them more clearly. That will save me from all the annoying guesswork.
dola-brun
Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:02 pm
#19
check out the forums for new armor...they discuss new styles of fighting. this might give us some new hope, if you are willing to wait around for it.
dola-brun
Ternque01
Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:45 pm
#21
RenKesson wrote:
*shrug*
Rectifying the CORE systems of the Pistoleer profession is what we all do here. There's no other reason for me to be here. In the future, before criticizing my misrepresentations of your thoughts, kindly represent them more clearly. That will save me from all the annoying guesswork.
I am not one to pick butthairs unless it is absolutely necessary. I thought it could be assumed that one would not poorly distribute the freed mods back into the pistoleer profession. meh.
Bassnet13
Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:36 am
#22
Well, for a long time I played Master Pistoleer/Desperado/Rogue, and I must say I enjoyed it. However, I am sorely missing some of the mods I got from BH now that I have taken up Master Ranger/CH 0003 to go with my pistols. To my eyes (and most of yours from what I've seen) Master Pistoleer should make you just that. The skill mods/specials from BH/smuggler should be nice bonuses (nifty tricks of the trade, if you will) that you get from pursuing those professions as well. They shouldn't be a pre-req. for having a good pistoleer.
Say what you may, but even when I had lines from here, there and everywhere, I wasn't all that keen on the thought of dabbling. Imagine Ki'ara hanging around at the gun club:
"Well, I grew up around pistols, have always been using them. My dad had a great DE-10, and taught me all the tricks of the trade. Give me any pistol and I can show you all kinds of tricks with it. What do you mean a Scatter pistol? What's that? HEY! How did you set him on fire!?!? AND WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO RELOAD THAT THING SO FAST!!! Bounty Hunter School? They actually have that? Dang I guess I'd better go. I can't keep up at all with what you're doing."
What should be:
"Hey, that's a nice gun, what is it? A scatter pistol eh? Let's see what she can do. Hmmm, not bad. That fire part was especially cool. Now let me show you what a pistol can really do. This? It's a DE-10. Yeah, she can be a stinker to control, but when you've been around pistols as long as I have, she's a beauty. See how it tears through that heavy armor? And see this stance I'm in? It halves the recoil meaning I can shoot that much faster. It also lends itself to quickly changing targets mid burst or even turning and hitting you with the butt end of my gun. Yeah, I offer lessons, signups are posted over on that door there."
BH runs off to begin Pistoleer training.
Ok, so that is a little cheesy and a lot extreme (or the other way around, I forget, it's late and all.) but my point is, Master BHs should be looking for lines in Pistol (besides defense) and not the other way around.
Say what you may, but even when I had lines from here, there and everywhere, I wasn't all that keen on the thought of dabbling. Imagine Ki'ara hanging around at the gun club:
"Well, I grew up around pistols, have always been using them. My dad had a great DE-10, and taught me all the tricks of the trade. Give me any pistol and I can show you all kinds of tricks with it. What do you mean a Scatter pistol? What's that? HEY! How did you set him on fire!?!? AND WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO RELOAD THAT THING SO FAST!!! Bounty Hunter School? They actually have that? Dang I guess I'd better go. I can't keep up at all with what you're doing."
What should be:
"Hey, that's a nice gun, what is it? A scatter pistol eh? Let's see what she can do. Hmmm, not bad. That fire part was especially cool. Now let me show you what a pistol can really do. This? It's a DE-10. Yeah, she can be a stinker to control, but when you've been around pistols as long as I have, she's a beauty. See how it tears through that heavy armor? And see this stance I'm in? It halves the recoil meaning I can shoot that much faster. It also lends itself to quickly changing targets mid burst or even turning and hitting you with the butt end of my gun. Yeah, I offer lessons, signups are posted over on that door there."
BH runs off to begin Pistoleer training.
Ok, so that is a little cheesy and a lot extreme (or the other way around, I forget, it's late and all.) but my point is, Master BHs should be looking for lines in Pistol (besides defense) and not the other way around.
MapaOfValcyn
Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:28 pm
#23
Testify my Brothers and Sisters, I started playing this game to be a Master Pistoleer and was very upset thatNOT takeing the BH Pistols tree was not an opinion. The fact that a Master Rifleman can out damage me is given but standing next to one and watching him fire a Master special faster than I can pump out any special this side of Marksman. I picked up BH Pistols 2 for the speed cap, once I was there torso shot was too temping. Watching my friends talk about their 2 full professions for 250 SP while I have to invest 184 to make 1 work. I may as well have been a Commando.
Put the speed and accuracy into Pistoleer and let BH and Smuggler have the tempting specials but I agree that for the hybrids that more points need to be in the lower boxes. A +10 at Novice and a +10 at Master are not the same. At Novice it just makes you a little better, at Master it pushes you over the top. Is there a noticable difference in speed or accuracy going from +55 to +65? I can tell you that going from +74 to +89 was noticable. Sorry I went from Master Marksman to BH Pistols 1 in the time it took to run between trainers.
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