Pistoleer Archive

Master Pistoleer has 74 pistol speed. Since fan shot has a 2.4 multiplier, a pistol with a speed of 1.6 is required to shoot fan shot once per second. For stopping shot, you need a pistol under 1.0 seconds (well, 1.0 is good enough really). Pistoleers definitely do not have enough pistol speed. How many people actually have good damage pistols that shoot at 1.6 or even 1.0? I go for damage slices personally.

Master riflemen have 90 rifle speed. A 10 second T21 can fire normal shots at 1 second. I don't know what the delays on their specials are because they've never posted up info on them, but I imagine a good rifle can shoot some of them near the cap. Master marksman/riflemen would have 95 rifle speed, which would be twice as good under the current system. I think Jaegen is the only correspondant to have actually tested out his profession fully, and I know he's been pushing to have the others publish data for comparison instead of blindly yelling to nerf us. Of course, it's not in their best interest to have a fair comparison because they know what the result would be.

The redundant pistoleer mods are all the accuracy ones. It's not like I actually missed as a novice. I'm really hoping for a big nerf to accuracy while moving so pistoleer is the only ranged class that has a chance of hitting people while running. That would make too much sense.

Jaegan's speed formula shows that at 100 or more speed you can fire ANY special at 1 shot per second. I haven't fully verified it, but I can fire some specials at 1shot/second that ought to have delays so it seems right to me. The more speed we have the better stopping shot gets until you get to 100. Sure some pistol speed is wasted on regular shots because it caps so soon. Butit isn't wasted on other shots. If any new shots get added in patches or expansions we could easily regret giving up pistol speed.

Take a hypothetical special (HyS)with a 4.0 delay multiplier. Now take apistol with rate of fire (RoF)2.0.Here are your shots

PS 0, regular: 1shot / 2s

PS 0, HyS: 1shot / 8s

PS 50, regular: 1shot / 1s

PS 50, HyS: 1shot / 4s

PS 74, regular shot: 1shot / s

PS 74, HyS: 1shot / 2.08s

So going from 50 to 74 speed didn't improve your regular shot at all (wasted) but it almost doubled your Hypothetical Shot RoF.

I had a nice chat about pistols today with my favorite weaponsmith. Here is some information I got. He told me that his effiency(I think that was it, the mod for dmg/speed)on tangle pistols was77%. This means that his tangle pistols have are with in 77% of their max stats. We came to the conclusion, the best tangle pistol possible is 50-100 damage at around 2.5 seconds. So even with a perfect tangle pistol, the stun damage does not do any good because it is still ar0 and the DPS is extremly low. With these statsa FWG5it will still do moredamage(and better accuracy/better speed/better range) than a tangle pistol against composite. Basicly, it isn't so much a lack of resources. I am assuming it is the same with all the other pistols as well(power5, striker, SR combat pistol). Better rare resources would yield better pistols. However, they would still be worthless. I will try to get some more information regarding what the max stats might be for the other higher level, yet worthless pistols.

I understand the concept fine. A stopping shot at every 2 seconds is not as nice as a fan shot every second. When we fire every special at the cap, then that is wasted skill mods. If the only thing we had to use was stopping shot, then it wouldn't be wasted because we still see returns from speed mods. I am not saying they do absolutly nothing no matter what. They are wasted on 90% of our specials. Now that I understand how the system works with certainty, I believe the speed mod issue is an even bigger issue than I did before. Basicly people shouldn't fire a T21 as fast as we fire a fast pistol.

FWG5s and T21s have the same min-max dmg ratio(1:4) so I am going to calculate max dmg potential using a master rifleman and a master pistoleers respective pool targeted attacks against ar 0 and 1 targets. I will throw in stopping shot with speed mods of3X and4X(anyone have any ideas?)Just to make it fair, I will also figure out what stopping shot and headshot3 do atspeed caps. I am also throwing in 30% dmg slice 30% dmg powerups,and speed mods from master status.

T21 418 DMG 7.1 speed AR3

706 dmg 7.1 speed after slice/powerups(current craftable T21s)

Headshot3: 3X damage(2118 damage) 2X speed(1.42 seconds)

2610 DPS vs AR0

2237 DPS vs AR1

FWG5 220 DMG 1.9 speed AR0

334 dmg 1.9 speed after slice/powerups

Bodyshot2: 2X damage(668) 1.8X speed(0.8208=1.0 cap)

668 DPS vs AR0

501 DPS vs AR1

Stopping shot: 5X damage(1670) 4X speed?(1.92)

869 DPS vs AR0

Stopping shot: 5X damage(1670) 3X speed?(1.44)

1159 DPS vs AR0

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T21 headshot3 DPS with +10 speed mods over master:

3706 DPS vs AR0

3177 DPS vs AR1

FWG5 stoppingshot DPS with +26 speed mods over master:

1670 DPS vs AR0

1252 DPS vs AR1

Our highest damaging shot is stopping shot, a random pool attacking special. While I can attack an unhealable pool with my T21 and do about 2.5X the damage than stopping shot even when capped. Like I said, I guessed on the stopping shot speed multiplier, I could not find it listed anywhere. However the theoretic max damage potential at capped speed is correct.

But wait, there is more. All of these weapons are the best I have seen with 30% damage slice and power ups on Bloodfin.

Average damage

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T21 (156-706 7.1 speed) AVG. headshot3 DPS with +10 speed mods over master:

1741 DPS vs AR0

1498DPS vs AR1

FWG5 (70-330 1.9 speed) AVG. stoppingshot DPS with +26 speed mods over master:

1000 DPS vs AR0

750DPS vs AR1

DX2(100-200 2.7 speed)AVG. stoppingshot DPS with +26 speed mods over master:

937.5 DPS vs AR0

750 DPS vs AR1

Again, we are comparing a pool directed skill to a random pool skill.

Please stop calling for the reduction of power (nerfs) to other classes. What really needs to be done for pistoleers, other than the defensive mods actually working(It is ridiculous that they don't work!), is to make Body shot 3 actually be better than BS2. It should do the same, or even a bit more damage than eye shot. After this is done, if they could get the rest of the specials to do what they actually are supposed to do(ie multi target shot), then I believe the pistoleer would probably be just about perfect.

Calling for nerfs in other professions helps nobody though. What helps is expecting the Devs to produce a working profession that has specials that do what they are supposed to do. And that is what really matters for all the professions.

RhysMarantz ,

You are not including armor resists on your calculation for the Tangle pistol. To be quick about it, the fwg5 will do 50% less due to AR, and then hit composite 40% heat resist. Tangle will go through both at normal damage. If you want to be fair in comparing vs composite. Tangle wins out. Someone will certainly correct me if I'm wrong. A good DX2 might be better, since it ignores the AR rating, and only hits the 40% resist.

We ignore deflector shields in that comparison, of course, since no one seems to use them much, but ineed, DX2 goes through the deflector and the tangle/FWG5 hit it. So probably at the end of the day, if we can just get some freaking well crafted DX2's they will be tops of our offering vs heavily armored/defended opponents.

Still going to go back andall read your data, will just take some time. I'm having trouble deciphering what your conclusions/questions are (maybe therewasn't any, it was just suggestions...have to go back and read).

I too think the speed formula is flawed by design, and I sent in a request that it be looked it. If anything was balanced through weapon damage vs delay, and/or style damage vs delay, that balnce is removed at high speed. If that's by design, fine, but I seriously doubt of balance is so far out of whack like it is now, that they would have planned to have this added wrench to deal with on balance. I mean, DPS, relatively speaking, changesbetween weapons and specials, depending on speeds.

I stand corrected, the tangle pistol could actualy do a bit more damage to composite over time. I will figure that out later. I wasn't really asking any more questions. First post is max theoretic damage with master speed mods, the second part of the post was with speed cap(+100). Second post is average damage with speed cap. All these weapons areobtainable onBloodfin.Both have 30% damage slice applied to min/max and 30% power up applied to max. First thing I do when I get a new weapon is get it sliced, then throw a power up on it. Right now I have about 25 31% max damage 15% pb accuracy couplers and 95 31% damage 15% max accuracy barrels on me. I pop these things like pez, but I am not sure about how much everyone else uses them. I know the figures might be hard to read, but each calculation had about a bunch of steps and after doing all that math over and over again... I just tried to keep it simple by giving weapon stats, the situation, and what was being measured. Sorry again if it is a bit confusing. I am sure you can figure it out.

As far as trying to get a class nerfed, I am most certainly not. I myself use rifles, why would I want to be nerfed? I am just pointing out that a rifleman can attack the mind pool for alot more damage than a pistoleer can with there most damaging attack hitting any pool. I guess from the numbers I presented the first thing that jumped in your head might have been "nerf"? All kidding aside, I am not trying to hurt any class. I want pistoleers to be competetive, just as much as rifleman. After all, I do play both.

My first post probably should have been MDPS(Max Damage Per Second) instead of DPS. Sorry for the confusion. The second post is DPS.

SHOULD HAVE READ MDPS for maximum damage per second. Trying to write a post and walk out the door at the same time. Failing at both.

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RhysMarantz wrote:

Maybe our PB skills(except pistol whip) should be renamed and remade into close combat skills and given better range. The speed and damage output of PBS2 and PBA2 are very nice, and I don't mind getting in close to use them. The problem is, I can't live up close long enough to use them. The only time I can rely on PBS2 is after a pistol whip someone. I would rather see these skills remain situational and requiring some skill and tactics to use.

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PBS2 cold probably use some fixing. But PBA1 and 2 would both be fine if they would fix PBA2 to hit multiple mobs. PBA1 is one of my highest DPS shots when I use it on 3+ mobs. PBA2 would hands down be my best shot if it really was AE.

So other than fixing PBA2 to work on multple targets, I don't think they need much changing.

Here is a link to Jaegans FAQ which includes a discussion on Pistol Speed: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=7716

But th basic takehome on pistol speedis that your skill is a percantage reduction in the delay AFTER you factor in the special. So at 100 speed you get 100% off and fire everything at 1 shot per second, even specials.