Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Master Pistol/MBH...where to put the rest of the points?
Uthyr wrote:
Thanks very much, Nifty, that template had never even occurred to me (I had never considered that you only need a single line of Medic to get to CM)! I just spec'd it out, and I have too many points tied up in FS skills to do that whole line, but even with just CM 2000 it looks like a much better template than Medic 0440. Now the question is whether those two skill boxes are the best ones to pick up in CM...it's a question of whether Healing Efficiency is more important than Medical Warfare Efficiency. I know this is starting to get off-forum, but do you have any thoughts about that?
The quick answer would be along the lines of what would fit your playstyle better? If one would give you significantly more enjoyment than the other, then go with the enjoyable one.
Aside from that, I am still respec'ing over from master ent/master musician, and I'm concentrating on getting MBH knocked out right now. I don't have a hands on feel for the effectiveness of improved healing specials/higher healing eff vs having the improved health poison and basic health fire. If you can only afford 15 points of CM (6 for the novice, and then 5+4 for two boxes) I'm thinking chem warfare is not the answer, as your medical warfare efficiency will only be 35. If the efficiency affects only the amount of damage per tick, it might be ok. If it also affects the success rate of applying the poison/fire, then it seems to be a waste of skill points. That is definitely a question to ask a current CM. I would guess that improved toss and spray will heal more than the regular toss and spray, and I do know that adding some healing efficiency does help. Bacta Shot was doing around 150 with +5, I added a box of support to get +10 and it was doing around 200 (though I'm sure that tapers off as you add more efficiency.)
So improved toss and spray with +35 healing would seem to outweigh improved poison/basic fire with +35 med warfare. If you could part with the FS points, I think 4/0/0/0 vs 0/4/0/0 is a different beast, and again, would come down to preference as both seem to be pretty darn effective from the numbers alone. Hopefully, I'll get to see it in action before too long, as I'm 4/1/0/3 BH now (I grind pistols, then respec it into the other lines.)
No prob, Uthyr.
I wish SOE would publish a guide on how the accuracy vs defense mods actually work, along with how speed actually works. They've said it's a logarithmic formula, but that still doesn't answer the question as to when adding more mods becomes less efficient. Like, what is the actual difference from having 285 ranged defense vs 250 ranged defense (difference between SL 0/4/0/4 and CM 0/4/0/0 with a pistol)? Linearly, that's a 14% increase, but we know it's not a linear formula. Would it be 10%? 5%? less? Is the better defense,accuracy, and speedmore desireable than having DoT poison and DoT fire?
Given the diminishing returns formula, on defense as a MP/MBH I would think if you're putting those 52 points into profs that are giving defense, adding FS defense on top of that probably wouldn't help as much. Now, say you went master scout in addition to MP/MBH, then some FS defense might be helpful.
Back to your dilemma... let's say you're going to go the healing route of CM, and you can afford 2/0/0/0 right now without dropping any FS skills. I'll assume you have 4/4/0/0 reflexes which gives 0 skill points. Emotional attachment to the FS grind aside 
you could drop 3 boxes of ranged defense to get CM 3/0/0/0. The trade off would be losing 15 defense points to pick up Adv Bacta Toss, +15 healing eff, and +5 ranged defense. so instead of 265 ranged with a pistol, you're 255 ranged with a pistol and up to +50 healing eff from +35. Drop 2 melee skills, and you lose 10 melee defense, but gain 5 back with cm 4/0/0/0, get another +15 healing eff (+65 total now)and pick up Adv Bacta Spray. So basically, giving up those FS skills to get the last 2 boxes of the Distance Healing line effectivelyloses you 5 melee defense and 10 ranged defense, but gains you +30 healing eff and two advanced heals. Given diminishing returns, losing 5 and 10 when you're in the 200's is not even a drop in the bucket compared to going from 35 to 65 healing eff. 
Oh, believe me, I know how hard it is to give up skills. I hated giving up my master musician and entertainer tags (for a second time.) That grind is nowhere near as tough as FS skills, but it's still rough to give up something you worked so hard for.
NayrTreppel wrote:I would go up Squad Leader 0/4/0/4. You get nice general speed, accuracy, and defense.
yes I think with MBH/MP/x4x4-SL you have close to the same defense as a Master Defender.. Plus you can root/intimidate
Smuggler has some nice roots and snares too
Is this a good template?
-Master Bounty Hunter
-Master Pistoleer
-Master Marksman
-Novice Medic (0/0/1/0)
With the 3 masters, I get good pistol speed and accuracy and with 0/0/1/0 medic, I heal more damage than having non-medic.
I went 4040 BH with master rifle/pistol
Startle shot is just like the old war cry doesn't break if you attack (its bugged shhhhh...) startel shot then root and auto attack is startle and there all yours
Nifty wrote:
No prob, Uthyr.
I wish SOE would publish a guide on how the accuracy vs defense mods actually work, along with how speed actually works. They've said it's a logarithmic formula, but that still doesn't answer the question as to when adding more mods becomes less efficient. Like, what is the actual difference from having 285 ranged defense vs 250 ranged defense (difference between SL 0/4/0/4 and CM 0/4/0/0 with a pistol)? Linearly, that's a 14% increase, but we know it's not a linear formula. Would it be 10%? 5%? less? Is the better defense,accuracy, and speedmore desireable than having DoT poison and DoT fire?
Given the diminishing returns formula, on defense as a MP/MBH I would think if you're putting those 52 points into profs that are giving defense, adding FS defense on top of that probably wouldn't help as much. Now, say you went master scout in addition to MP/MBH, then some FS defense might be helpful.
Back to your dilemma... let's say you're going to go the healing route of CM, and you can afford 2/0/0/0 right now without dropping any FS skills. I'll assume you have 4/4/0/0 reflexes which gives 0 skill points. Emotional attachment to the FS grind aside
Oh, believe me, I know how hard it is to give up skills. I hated giving up my master musician and entertainer tags (for a second time.) That grind is nowhere near as tough as FS skills, but it's still rough to give up something you worked so hard for.
You have a logical and analytical mind, Nifty--I can definitely relate. The kind of analysis you did on my template options is exactly the kind fo thing I've posted here many times in the past, on other topics, so I read your numbers with great interest. You've almost got me convinced to drop the FS skills. My concern is that the day I drop the FS, I can just see the devs tweaking the stats so they are more in line with the CU, and then countless hours of grinding will be down the drain, and I will have to pick up my DE-10 and shoot myself in the head (though it won't do much damage now). If I was heading for Jedi, I would of course not even consider dropping FS skills, but I don't care about being a Jedi and only keep the skillsfor the mods. If I could respec the FS skills, I might be tempted to move them to more useful branches now.
Anyway, your argument is very convincing. The only trade-off that is making me hestate is that I would theoretically rather have better defenses than have to rely so heavily on healing. Healing isn't going to do much good against a one-shot kill, for example. On the other hand, healing is much more concrete for me to visualize--I just love seeing my health bar regenerate to 100% with a single click, but you never really see exactly what's happening when you add more defenses.
As for your desire to see the devs post a guide on how the mods work, I would be all for that! Somebody actually did post a graph on the Carbineer forum recently on how player speed mods equation looks. I don't know if the graph looks similar for pistols, or for defenses and accuracy, but it's definitely an enlightening graph. Click here to see it.
I'm going to post a question about this on the CM forum too and see what those folks have to recommend.
After getting MasterMarksman my Scatter pistols DPS went up 15-20 points.
Message Edited by BH1978 on 05-04-2005 05:27 PM
BH1978 wrote:
Master Marksman is worth getting.....an extra + for general accuracy and speed. Can't remember exact numbers but they are nice.
After getting MasterMarksman my Scatter pistols DPS went up 15-20 points.
Message Edited by BH1978 on 05-04-2005 05:27 PM
Yeah, it does give some nice extras--I just checked it out. However, you can get much higher general accuracy and speed boost , for the same number of skill points, by picking up something like Rifleman 4400 (I ran the numbers). I suspect that your DPS went up because your combat level increased, not because of any extra skill mods you picked up, but I could be wrong about that.
Uthyr wrote:
BH1978 wrote:
Master Marksman is worth getting.....an extra + for general accuracy and speed. Can't remember exact numbers but they are nice.
After getting MasterMarksman my Scatter pistols DPS went up 15-20 points.Message Edited by BH1978 on 05-04-2005 05:27 PM
Yeah, it does give some nice extras--I just checked it out. However, you can get much higher general accuracy and speed boost , for the same number of skill points, by picking up something like Rifleman 4400 (I ran the numbers). I suspect that your DPS went up because your combat level increased, not because of any extra skill mods you picked up, but I could be wrong about that.
I was already lvl 80 before i got the Master Marksman....and my DPS still went up.
But ill have to take a look at the other options. MBH and Master Pistols stay.....i like the Master Marksman option just because it will give me a little dabble of both rifle and carbine speed if i choose to use them...then the master box gives the general speed and accuracy points.
ThePredator85 wrote:
Is this a good template?
-Master Bounty Hunter
-Master Pistoleer
-Master Marksman
-Novice Medic (0/0/1/0)
With the 3 masters, I get good pistol speed and accuracy and with 0/0/1/0 medic, I heal more damage than having non-medic.
hiya. I'll try to put out the numbers and we'll have a look. My concern is the gain you'll get for the Master Marksman box won't be worth the skill points you put in, but we'll see.
Let's look at your general acc/spd/mdf/rdf for just MP/MBH, and then we'll add in general MM
MP/MBH = 160/60/165/180 (add 40/45/50/50 for having a pistol equipped)
adding MM = 185/75/165/185
So for 14+14+6 = 34 skill points, you're adding 25 acc, 15 speed, and 5 ranged defense. Now, given the lower XP requirements, it's not a bad addition. However, given the same 34 skill points but with significantly higher XP requiremens, you can add 0/0/0/4 Squad Leader and your stats would be
0004 SL = 190/75/175/190
Given the same skill point requirements, this is a slightly better template, however, given the supposed diminishing returns, you probably won't notice the difference much aside from having a couple of Squad Leader commands. However, if you take another 14 points and get 0/4/0/4 SL, you'll add another 45 points to both defenses (then you'd not be able to get the medic stuff.)
Medic 0/0/1/0 will give you Bacta Shot foraround 200 point heal in addition to using a Stimpack (which I guess healing efficiency affects as well, maybe BadgerSmaker can confirm/deny that). Also, citrus snow cake is a very short boost (mine are 2.5 mins long) to healing efficiency, so that can be helpful as well.