Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleers and the Combat Balance: Suggestions (Devs, PLEASE read : )
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Rathask
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:33 am
#1
Okay, a few thoughts on Pistoleers and the combat balance...
The first step to solving any problem is to define it, so I'll address the problems with the pistoleer profession right off the bat. Please bear in mind that all of this represents the use of the Pistoleer profession by itself, without Bounty Hunter or Smuggler (please see the section below that addresses these combinations). In my opinion, the problems with Pistoleer are (in no particular order)as follows:
1.) Low DPS: Compared the other combat professions, Pistoleer does only 50% as much damage (sometimes less), both in PvE and PvP.
2.)PvE: Pistoleers are unable to inflict any significant amount of damage on creatures with Medium or Heavy armor.
3.) PvP: None of the current pistols are capable of penetrating the current generation of armor. The inclusion of the Geonosian Sonic Blaster was a step in the right direction, but even it is neutralized by the combination of stun armor and a good PSG. The second reason why the Sonic was not an effective solution is that it is impossible for a pistoleer to obtain without spending millions of credits. Not only is the schematic drop rare, but, simply put, the Geonosian Lab is death for Pistoleers for reasons described above (see problem #2).
4.) Low accuracy: Pistoleers miss frequently even in PvE, and miss as often as 2 out of 3 shots in PvP vs. defense stackers.
5.) Broken, Ineffective, or Bland Specials: Almost all of the specials (with the exception of Fan Shot and MeleeDefense1) in the pistoleer trees are broken or useless. DisarmingShot1 and DisarmingShot2 do no damage to an opponent's weapon; they have no noticeable effect aside from sub-par damage to the target itself. BodyShot3 does scarcely more damage than BodyShot2 (from the Marksman Pistols line) and has a much higher delay. MeleeDefense2 does more damage than MeleeDefense1 but has a much higher HAM cost and has no Knockdown. Multi-TargetPistolShot is a less-damaging and sometimes entirely inoperable version of Fanshot. StoppingShot does good damage but is too slow to be effective; FanShot has a higher DPS and hits mulitple targets, besides. In addition to these items, only HealthShot2 and MeleeDefense1 have any status or DoT effects, making for a very bland experience; the only thing "special" about the pistoleer specials is that they inflict increased (though sub-par) damage.
6.)Insignificant Defenses: Pistoleers are unable to withstand damage. Though a ranged profession, they receive almost no ranged defense. Also, as the ranged profession with the shortest effective range, Pistoleers do not have adequate melee defenses. In addition, Pistoleers are all too easily knocked down, dizzied,blinded, etc. despite some amount of resistance to these effects.
7.) High HAM Costs:Pistoleer specials require too much HAM to use when considering the DPS and the rate of fire. A Pistoleer shooting at the speed cap can go through his entire action bar in under ten seconds when unbuffed. This is a problem that affects many professions, but is especially prevalent with Pistoleer.
I have a few suggestions on how to address each of these issues:
1.) Low DPS: Simple enough -increase damage. Do not increase speed. Pistoleers already go through HAM at an alarming rate considering their rate of fire.
2.) PvE and Inability to Significantly Damage Medium-Armored Creatures: The first possible solution is to simply provide Pistoleers with a weaon or set of weapons with Medium AP. While a pistol that can penetrate thick armor is unrealistic, this is a balance issue. If this option is taken DO NOT make this pistol impossible for a straight Pistoleer to acquire without spending aridiculous chunk of cashthe way the Geonosian Sonic Blaster is. The second possible solution is much more intriguing and less hard to believe: give pistols a Precision Strike ability. This ability would work much like CenterOfBeing does now in that itwould beactivated ahead of time, cost HAM to use, and last for a finite time period. Within this time period, Pistoleers' shots would be more precisely placed to target the chinks in the target's armor, effectively increasing the AP level of the weapon by one step (none to light, light to medium). Do not reduce the rate of fire while Precision Strike is in effect; the pistoleer is already paying HAM to use the ability and should not be further penalized.
3.)Inability to Inflict Damage in PvP: In conjunction, the solutions to items 1 and 2 should rectify this issue.
4.) Low Accuracy: Straightforward fix -increase accuracy.
5.) Broken/Ineffective/Bland Specials:Many changes needed. Disarmingshot1 and Disarmingshot2 should damage the target's gun-hand, causing a longer delay in between shots. This should be an action pool-targeted attack. Damage from Bodyshot3 should be increase, and the delay afterwards decreased significantly. Give MeleeDefense2 a Knockdown or Knockdown/Dizzy effect and decrease HAM cost slightly. For MultiTargetPistolShot, allow it to work like Fan Shot does now, though with slightly increased damage and add it to Pistol Techniques IV. In conjunction with the change to Multi-Target Pistol Shot, move Fan Shot to Master Pistoleer, increase damage, and add a dizzy effect to simulate the disorientation caused by the withering hail of fire being unleashed. For StoppingShot, either decrease the delay or add a Knockdown effect. These changes would also fix the "bland" nature of Pistoleer by adding status changing effects to the various specials.
6.) Insignificant Defense: Again, straightforward fix: increase ranged and melee defense, the former more than the latter.
7.) High HAM Costs: Reduce the HAM costs to use each special by 25%-50%.
Please bear in mind that many of these suggestions would not work if taken individually.It is possible that only as a whole would these changes make Pistoleer a fun and effective part of Star Wars: Galaxies.
And now on to the controversial part: profession combinations. Prevent Bounty Hunter speed and accuracy bonuses from stacking with Pistoleer speed and accuracy bonuses beyond the maximum already available to Master Pistoleer alone. For smuggler, one of two options is available: First, add speed and accuracy bonuses to the Smuggler Pistols tree and limit asnoted in the previous sentence, OR leave smuggler as it is to rely on speed and accuracy bonuses from Pistoleer. Either way, the Pistoleer should be the final word when it comes to Pistols. Yes, the Bounty Hunterprofessionrequires more work to acquire, butit also gains access to otherwise unavailable attacks from both Pistols AND Carbines (not to mention speed and accuracy with both), gains the ability to track targets, and even gains a unique and powerful weapon: the Light Lightning Cannon.
I hope these suggestions are found to be worthwhile and are taken to heart. For me, a change like this represents the last, best hope for the profession I chose when I first installed Galaxies and have kept through all the ups and downs, good times (few) and bad (many).
To any Developers reading this, I thank you for your time and attention.
Rathask
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:45 am
#2
P.S.I know that those who agree with something often leave that agreement unsaid, taking it for granted. To better assist the Developers in determining the interests of the Pistoleer communityas they relate to these suggestions(assuming they have the opportunity to read this post -wry grin-), please "me too", disagree, or post suggested changes to the above (constructive criticism is always welcome). The more feedback the Developers get, the more likely it is they will act upon that feedback.
Once again, thank you for you time and attention. I am very eager to see Pistoleer assume its rightful place as a fun and useful profession.
Malacious
Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:15 am
#4
I agree with most of what was said here, except I do not think you need to chage the location of the specials, just the effects of the specials. I remember reading about "stopping shot" I was looking forward to it only to be disappointed with it. I have to agree with the specials being very dissapointing with the HAM costs to be extremely high! I manly use Healthshot and Melee Defense 1 (melee defense 2 was extremely disappointing! Pistolleer needs some revamping, just like many other professions. The one nice thing I can say is that unlike many static games SWG has the ability to evolve and change over time if people have patience to wait for it.I personally have said before that the pistoller revamp should come with the smuggler revamp because the professions are in what I consider to be the same family.
Malacious McCullin
Master Smuggler Almost Master Pistoleer
Valinor Eclipse - LOB
BZebub
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:17 am
#5
Rathask wrote:
P.P.S. The changed Fan Shot should be a single-target attack.
no - the description is incorrect (like PMD2 was)...a FAN shot is meant to FAN across an AREA.
WinterRoseASFR
Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:38 pm
#7
In regards to Pistol solution #2, A Pistol that can penetrate thick armour is not at all unrealistic for the Star Wars continuity. Indeed, the best example of such is the DX-2, which was the 'Tenloss Syndicate DX-2 Disruptor Pistol' in the 1997 reference book, 'Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology' (Del Rey) That pistol was described as a Disruptor so dangerous that it carried a mandatory death sentence for POSESSION of said weapon. It was supposed to disintegrate most sentients on contact, and could penetrate 3 meters of Armour Plating. So if ANY weapon was meant to be Medium AP, it was the DX-2.
While I have yet to find any reference to the DE-10, I'll keep looking.
If you do indeed want more suggestions for other unique weaponry and damage type possibilities, look in the weapon histories link in my signature below. There you'll find several pistols with suggestions as to how they might be implemented in the game to reflect their origins in the RPG books they came from. (like the FWG-5 was)
While I have yet to find any reference to the DE-10, I'll keep looking.
If you do indeed want more suggestions for other unique weaponry and damage type possibilities, look in the weapon histories link in my signature below. There you'll find several pistols with suggestions as to how they might be implemented in the game to reflect their origins in the RPG books they came from. (like the FWG-5 was)
Katana_Blade
Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:15 pm
#8
Lots of good things here The biggest problem I see is, if all these were implemented, we would be INCREDIBLY overpowered. First off, I think you did a great job with numbers 3 and the first part of number 5.
Number 1 I have a little problem with. Like you said we eat up HAM tooo fast to have our speed raised, but I think a HAM decrease and speed increase would be the best solution. Why? because pistols are not hard to fire. It doesnt hurt someone to raise a small gun and pull the trigger a little. It is HARDLY exerting yourself. Secondly pistols should not hit hard. Thats why our speed should be increased instead. we should hit real quick. real real quick. Maybe, maybe a damage increase is in order because we are doing such little damage currently and our speed can only get so much faster.
The end of number 5 is also a little weird I guess. it seems like you thought out the rest of this really well and this seems to be lacking that for some reason. aside from talking about the 'withering hail of fire,' first of all I think an increase on damage of fan shot is unnessesary. An overall increase in pistoleer speed will help that just fine. I dunno about multi-target (I'm not master yet so I've never used it) but I thought the damage modifier was even higher then fan shot. The thing I wish about multi-target was I've heard it only targets two enemies, and I think it should be able to target more, (3-5) preferably 4.
Anyways good post. I think I've heard it before on the forums but I like the 'Precision Strike' Idea. (I think when I heard it it completly bypassed the armor which I really didnt like but yours is much better implemented IMO.)
Number 1 I have a little problem with. Like you said we eat up HAM tooo fast to have our speed raised, but I think a HAM decrease and speed increase would be the best solution. Why? because pistols are not hard to fire. It doesnt hurt someone to raise a small gun and pull the trigger a little. It is HARDLY exerting yourself. Secondly pistols should not hit hard. Thats why our speed should be increased instead. we should hit real quick. real real quick. Maybe, maybe a damage increase is in order because we are doing such little damage currently and our speed can only get so much faster.
The end of number 5 is also a little weird I guess. it seems like you thought out the rest of this really well and this seems to be lacking that for some reason. aside from talking about the 'withering hail of fire,' first of all I think an increase on damage of fan shot is unnessesary. An overall increase in pistoleer speed will help that just fine. I dunno about multi-target (I'm not master yet so I've never used it) but I thought the damage modifier was even higher then fan shot. The thing I wish about multi-target was I've heard it only targets two enemies, and I think it should be able to target more, (3-5) preferably 4.
Anyways good post. I think I've heard it before on the forums but I like the 'Precision Strike' Idea. (I think when I heard it it completly bypassed the armor which I really didnt like but yours is much better implemented IMO.)
Katana_Blade
Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:22 pm
#9
Also, I dont think we need an increase in defense. We already have more defneses than any other ranged profession is I'm not mistaken.
And in reagards to Winter Rose, I have the book too and I love it, but first of all the DX-2 is sorta implemented as an acid, and the DXR-6 is a rifle. Althought you are right about the 'realistic' power of these guns. It would be unbalancing for a tiny pistol that shoots fast to have heavy armor piecing. The Devs have to find a good balance between realism and balance.
And in reagards to Winter Rose, I have the book too and I love it, but first of all the DX-2 is sorta implemented as an acid, and the DXR-6 is a rifle. Althought you are right about the 'realistic' power of these guns. It would be unbalancing for a tiny pistol that shoots fast to have heavy armor piecing. The Devs have to find a good balance between realism and balance.
BZebub
Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:49 pm
#10
Katana_Blade wrote:
Also, I dont think we need an increase in defense. We already have more defneses than any other ranged profession is I'm not mistaken.
we have the worst ranged defense. our melee defense is small - the same as a ... rifleman!? our status defenses are only useful if stacked. dodge is the best we have for defenses, and we only dodge about 8 or 9% of the time at master.
Rathask
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:42 pm
#11
-chuckle- My point with the defense mods was to allow pistoleer to hold its own without having to combine with a melee class to have adequate defenses. If you look at how easily someone with only Fencer as a profession can shrug off ranged fire and melee hits alike and compare it with how vulnerable someone with only pistoleer is, I think you'll see where I was trying to go with this one. ;-)
As for Fan Shot and Multi-Target, my intention was to present Pistoleerswith a highly effective special attack at master that is useful in both PvE and PvP and is more than just another damge-dealing special. If Mulit-Target actually WORKED (to the best of my knowledge it's still totally broken), it would simply be a slightly more effective version of Fan Shot. And even that "more effective" is iffy. By moving Multi-Target down to the place that Fan Shot currently holds, it preserves the multi-targeting ablitiy for those who simply dabble in the profession. By moving Fan Shot to Master, making it a single target attack, and giving it a dizzy status effect, the intention is to reward those who actually MASTER the profession (and not just dabble) with a highly effective special that is useful against tough opponents in both PvP and PvE. The Fan Shot name stood because the pistoleer in question would be fanning the target with a massive amount of focused fire, while the multi-targeting ability is removed due to the fact that ranged+area+dizzy = cheese in PvP.
Questions?Comments? Suggestions?
BZebub
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:49 pm
#12
Rathask wrote:
If Mulit-Target actually WORKED (to the best of my knowledge it's still totally broken),
check the sticky. MTPS is a buggy Sphere AOE (attacks everything in a 32m radius)
Rathask
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:58 pm
#13
Ah, okay. Haven't tried it in a couple of months. My bad. -grin-
Anyway, knowing that, what do you think of the Fan Shot/Multi-Target switch and alteration? Personally, I'd say still do the change and make Multi-Target work like Fan Shot does now (because I believe Pistoleers should have a clear reward for being master and not dabbler), but... ;-)
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