Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Concerned Combat Rebalance?
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BigLands
Thu May 27, 2004 2:00 am
#1
Lo folks,
I'm a master pistoleer/master smuggler and with some of my leftover poitns I decided to try out TK - and found I'm more sucessful with three boxes of TK than I am with pistols at double master. Needless to say this did not inspire me with confidence.
Let me begin by saying I don't think TK needs a nerf - it's a fun prof, and has plenty of problems of it's own to deal with.
Now this set me thinking - the combat rebalance has a choice - bring everyone else UP to the level of TK and Rifleman, or bring TK and Rifleman DOWN to the level of the gimped like us. There is also the possiblity of averaging out every combat prof - tho how that could be done boggles the mind 
Read that statement again. Which option would be easier for the Devs?
My concerns are twofold - firstly we know next to nothing about the single most important publish in the game so far (resists the urge torant about it's been put on the back burner since FEB). Does anyone know what the revamp will actually include? Has anyone heard anything other than 'The revamp will fix everything?'
Secondly, this whole rebalance/revamp seems to be very low priority - is it just me or should this have been worked on to the exclusion of everything? We're talking about a game that's now a year old - and we don't have a working combat system, we don't have a GCW, wehave basically two fully functioning combat classes (arguable , I know you might include fencers andcommando and BH, although many of them might disagree)
This isn't so much a rant as a braindump - I'mstarting to get this awful feeling I'vebeen conned - sort of like if I paid for a new PC and it arrived component by component over the space of a year.......
This of course opens the wider question - is the reason online game developers act like this simply because we're all naive enough to keep paying for unfinished products?
Your opinions ladies and gents, please
Mr_Wibble
Thu May 27, 2004 2:30 am
#2
BigLands wrote:
Lo folks,
I'm a master pistoleer/master smuggler and with some of my leftover poitns I decided to try out TK - and found I'm more sucessful with three boxes of TK than I am with pistols at double master. Needless to say this did not inspire me with confidence.
Let me begin by saying I don't think TK needs a nerf - it's a fun prof, and has plenty of problems of it's own to deal with.
Now this set me thinking - the combat rebalance has a choice - bring everyone else UP to the level of TK and Rifleman, or bring TK and Rifleman DOWN to the level of the gimped like us. There is also the possiblity of averaging out every combat prof - tho how that could be done boggles the mind
Averaging thing out IMO. Riflemen being able to shoot as fast as pistoleers, doing more damage and having much higher primary defences is a bit much.
Read that statement again. Which option would be easier for the Devs?
My concerns are twofold - firstly we know next to nothing about the single most important publish in the game so far (resists the urge torant about it's been put on the back burner since FEB). Does anyone know what the revamp will actually include? Has anyone heard anything other than 'The revamp will fix everything?'
All we really know is that things will change. Personally, I'm looking forward to the combat sandbox, so I get a chance to play around with things.
Secondly, this whole rebalance/revamp seems to be very low priority - is it just me or should this have been worked on to the exclusion of everything? We're talking about a game that's now a year old - and we don't have a working combat system, we don't have a GCW, wehave basically two fully functioning combat classes (arguable , I know you might include fencers andcommando and BH, although many of them might disagree)
I wouldn't include commando in that list
This isn't so much a rant as a braindump - I'mstarting to get this awful feeling I'vebeen conned - sort of like if I paid for a new PC and it arrived component by component over the space of a year.......
This of course opens the wider question - is the reason online game developers act like this simply because we're all naive enough to keep paying for unfinished products?
Your opinions ladies and gents, please
WesBelden
Thu May 27, 2004 2:56 am
#3
They're nerfing everything, including armour. They'll just be nerfing every combat profession more than pistoleer 
(in order for it to be balanced out). Whether they'll fix our specials I don't know, that might be left until publish 10.1 (QA and Correspondent issues).
(in order for it to be balanced out). Whether they'll fix our specials I don't know, that might be left until publish 10.1 (QA and Correspondent issues).
Able-kain
Thu May 27, 2004 4:15 am
#4
well, the combat rebalance promises much and they aren't letting the details out... but i have a feeling the first thing they have to change is the math behind attack speed. presently, with plus 100 to weapon speed you will hit the cap with the slowest weapon and the slowest special... well, i know that we all know that, but i wonder if this were even intended... at tkm you have a 115 (i believe) bonus to weapon speed... why have the extra 15 points? i think it was a mistake that they will only get around to fixing in the rebalance... changing that formula alone will balance (somewhat) riflemen, i have been in the tk forums a lot... i read more than i post by far, but the coor there said that they were one of the only classes that was working as the devs intended. since we all know that until the near future tks only have on damage type (that being their great limiter) and knowing the devs are including another damage type, i think they will go with the averaging method, i think they will nerf the tks damage and the riflemans speed. if they chose to fix all the brokens while they were at it, that would go far in balancing everthing. plus giving master pisoleer dual wield might (if they choose to have it be a bonus and not a problem) put pistols back where they belong... in my hands. THANK YOU, AND GOOD NIGHT.
Jibbrish
Thu May 27, 2004 7:49 am
#5
I think that the rebalance has been given the priority it deserves. With JTL (which most have been waiting for for a long time) they can't just have everyone working on one thing. This is also a huge undertaking and because of that will take some time to complete. We haven't seen much because they are probably still number crunching and planning at this point.
I personally don't think that comabat is so out of whack right now but i do think it can be improved. Anyone that's not participating in combat because they are waiting until the rebalance is mad. I do mostly PvE but some PvP so i do see where improvements could be made but to say combat is broken, well, i have to disagree with that.
Looking at the task that they've set themselves points to why it will take so long:
Profession Rebalance
1. Combat Power vs. Skill point usage
a. eg. master sm or tkm or mst pistol all leave 158 skill pts,
mst commando leaves around 80, which should be more powerful?
2. Weapon certs aligned with weapons power
a. differentiating weapon types so that more are useful when master.
3. Specials
a. Adding artwork so that all specials show some type of attack
b. Evaluating usefulness and cert level
4. Combat profession combinations
a. All combat profession combinations will need to be taken into account.
no perfect template ...
5. Bigger stategy mix
a. Where does each profession sit in the combat framework?
b. This has probably been laid out first,so they know what they want fromeach
profession
1. Combat Power vs. Skill point usage
a. eg. master sm or tkm or mst pistol all leave 158 skill pts,
mst commando leaves around 80, which should be more powerful?
2. Weapon certs aligned with weapons power
a. differentiating weapon types so that more are useful when master.
3. Specials
a. Adding artwork so that all specials show some type of attack
b. Evaluating usefulness and cert level
4. Combat profession combinations
a. All combat profession combinations will need to be taken into account.
no perfect template ...
5. Bigger stategy mix
a. Where does each profession sit in the combat framework?
b. This has probably been laid out first,so they know what they want fromeach
profession
This is just part of it though, they also have to look at everything that can affect combat.
1. Buffs
a. who knows what tact they will take with buffs...
2. Food
a. Again, who knows
3. Armor
a. Certs for all armor - what form this will take, who knows?
b. Rebalance of armor stats so that a type of armor is more applicable to a
type of damage - not everyone buys composite because it's the best.
4. Slicing
a. Who knows what they might do here? But it does affect combat so i'm sure that
it's being looked at in this process too.
5. Powerups
a. Stat balance or certs or both(?)
6. GCW
a. All of this has to be done in the context of the GCW which is up for improvements
in the near future too.
1. Buffs
a. who knows what tact they will take with buffs...
2. Food
a. Again, who knows
3. Armor
a. Certs for all armor - what form this will take, who knows?
b. Rebalance of armor stats so that a type of armor is more applicable to a
type of damage - not everyone buys composite because it's the best.
4. Slicing
a. Who knows what they might do here? But it does affect combat so i'm sure that
it's being looked at in this process too.
5. Powerups
a. Stat balance or certs or both(?)
6. GCW
a. All of this has to be done in the context of the GCW which is up for improvements
in the near future too.
Look at all of that and multipy it by 2, for PvP & PvE, becuase the dev's have realized that there are substantial differences in the two.
This is a huge undertaking and to exclude all else for it is unrealistic. The planning and number crunching, comparisons that must go on and mapping all of that out before any coding is done will take quite some time and won't benefit by just adding bodies to work on it.
Keep in mind that the nature of the MMO is that it can be improved on and tweaked over it's entire lifespan. It's never really completed which is why that $15 / month is justified. This isn't the same game i bought last July nor will it be the same game in 6 months that it is now. As long as it's improving, i'll still play.
AhJahFrolio
Mon May 31, 2004 3:08 pm
#6
Jibbrish the whole skill points thing is a little jaded in my opinion. If that is your logic then a Master Smuggler/Master Pistoleer/Master Teras Kasi Combo should be strong because of all the skill points it takes to be that three master combo. Ontop of that with this logic Master Bounty Hunters should be the most powerful and in my opinion a MBH going toe to toe vs. a Pistoleer with Pistols or a Carbineer with Carbines should lose flat out! I think the most important thing to look at is the amount of XP that was required to attain the skills that you have. 1291000 Pistol XP for BH Pistol IV and 3891000 for Master Pistoleer, guess who should win every single time pistol vs. pistol? That is the way it has to be, and Commandos are very powerful, but they aren't meant for PvP at all! They are meant for heavy combat against tanks, and huge things. And yet Commandos are powerful! All they need is2-3shots with a DOT and a powerful flame thrower and your a dead man. I think there needs to be more reasoning behind that, and skill should be a huge factor. Other than that you have some good points Jibb.
Boba-Fett30
Mon May 31, 2004 5:16 pm
#7
bh FULLY working, i dont think so. We have to hunt jedi and they have a new dmg type that no one can stop. BH is weak in defense. tracking doesnt work. BH isnt fully working, the weapons arent bad but its not fully, commando works but isnt powerful anough to have a title commando, more like cadet in PvP, Commando for PvE...maybe.
only fully working classes are marksman,all crafting professions (cause devs love them), scout/ranger/ch. and entertainer professions... CM is too over powered so they are working right
Katana_Blade
Mon May 31, 2004 5:51 pm
#8
I have a lot of thoughts on this:
First, like BigLands I dont like how low a priority the combat rebalance has been.
-Jibberish, JTLS isnt what were worried about as far priority its the fact that IDs have gotten a patch Droids have gotten a patch and now Jedi are getting two patches then on the second jedi patch is where they decide to take the combat rebalance. I mean, I'm sorry, my alt is a DE but almost all of the player base is going to be afftected by the combat rebalance, unlike Droids, unlike BHs, unlike Image designers. The combat balance should have been like publish 7 or 8 Not 10.
Second, people keep saying "they're nerfing everything" like its a bad thing. Here's my beef with that. When I play an MMO I play it to play with thousands of other people. Not to solo gigundous creatures. "Nerfing" all the professions is going to force people to group wo take on bigger things, which I think is really cool. My like top 10 experiences have all been in a group, But its really hard to find people to group with cause all the buffed riflemen can solo everything. I just hope people dont flip out and quit cause they cant solo that rancor or krayt anymore.
Third, I totally agree with AhJahFrolio. The devs should not determine which classes are best by how many skill points they take to get to them cause guess what Master BH vs. Master Pistoleer/Master Smuggler whose spent more points? This is a bad way to decide "who beats who." Also AhJah makes another good point by saying master Carbineer vs Master BH using a carbine that the Carbineer should win. BH needs a complete revamp, not because they suck, but because they arent filling their niche (which I am about to make a new topic post about) BHs shouldnt be able to gun down people just cause they spent more points.
BTW Commandos dont work at all the Flamethrower is the only decent weapon they have. Having experienced both though, Pistoleer is worse
I need a Signature....so....
Bado Ro'fey Bria Pistoleer 0/0/4/1, Commando 0/2/0/0, Novice Smuggler.
First, like BigLands I dont like how low a priority the combat rebalance has been.
-Jibberish, JTLS isnt what were worried about as far priority its the fact that IDs have gotten a patch Droids have gotten a patch and now Jedi are getting two patches then on the second jedi patch is where they decide to take the combat rebalance. I mean, I'm sorry, my alt is a DE but almost all of the player base is going to be afftected by the combat rebalance, unlike Droids, unlike BHs, unlike Image designers. The combat balance should have been like publish 7 or 8 Not 10.
Second, people keep saying "they're nerfing everything" like its a bad thing. Here's my beef with that. When I play an MMO I play it to play with thousands of other people. Not to solo gigundous creatures. "Nerfing" all the professions is going to force people to group wo take on bigger things, which I think is really cool. My like top 10 experiences have all been in a group, But its really hard to find people to group with cause all the buffed riflemen can solo everything. I just hope people dont flip out and quit cause they cant solo that rancor or krayt anymore.
Third, I totally agree with AhJahFrolio. The devs should not determine which classes are best by how many skill points they take to get to them cause guess what Master BH vs. Master Pistoleer/Master Smuggler whose spent more points? This is a bad way to decide "who beats who." Also AhJah makes another good point by saying master Carbineer vs Master BH using a carbine that the Carbineer should win. BH needs a complete revamp, not because they suck, but because they arent filling their niche (which I am about to make a new topic post about) BHs shouldnt be able to gun down people just cause they spent more points.
BTW Commandos dont work at all the Flamethrower is the only decent weapon they have. Having experienced both though, Pistoleer is worse
I need a Signature....so....
Bado Ro'fey Bria Pistoleer 0/0/4/1, Commando 0/2/0/0, Novice Smuggler.
Kevie
Mon May 31, 2004 6:42 pm
#9
TH has said he won't touch several professions very much (like fencer) because they are useful, fun, and working as intended
he has also said he will beef up many professions (bounty hunter getting more defenses, pikeman getting more damage/accuracy)
every profession is not going to get a nerf, but some are going to be toned down abit to keep them in line with their original design (combat medic's range reduced, rifleman's speed reduced)
DukeRith
Mon May 31, 2004 7:42 pm
#10
Boba-Fett30 wrote:
commando works but isnt powerful anough to have a title commando, more like cadet in PvP, Commando for PvE...maybe.
comamdo in PvE, try not good at all, im a master pistoleer and commando, i have the dodge from pistoleer so i can last a while. commando does great damage when we hit, but our accuracy sucks, and we move so slow it sucks, we're only effective in groups were some one else can take the butt of the attack.
pistoleer would be ok on there own it we had working specials. which i think is the first thing we need fixed.
Bridonar
Mon May 31, 2004 8:19 pm
#11
Boba-Fett30 wrote:
only fully working classes are marksman,all crafting professions (cause devs love them), scout/ranger/ch. and entertainer professions... CM is too over powered so they are working right
Ranger is a fully working class???? Maybe you should check the forums...
JawaJoey2
Mon May 31, 2004 11:20 pm
#12
^Ranger's working fine! Except for that whole line of camo kits that don't work, and traps are useless, and rescue doesn't work, and camps aren't needed, and a Master Ranger doesn't even harvest a whole lot more than a novice scout, and all that extra terrain negotiation is pointless (really, 50 gets you full running speed on any hill, and you get that from mastering scout).
we have basically two fully functioning combat classes (arguable , I know you might include fencers and commando and BH, although many of them might disagree)
Fencers are definitely working, and commandos and BHs definitely aren't. So basically, Fencer, TKA, Rifleman, and.... thats it.
Jibbrish the whole skill points thing is a little jaded in my opinion. If that is your logic then a Master Smuggler/Master Pistoleer/Master Teras Kasi Combo should be strong because of all the skill points it takes to be that three master combo. Ontop of that with this logic Master Bounty Hunters should be the most powerful and in my opinion a MBH going toe to toe vs. a Pistoleer with Pistols or a Carbineer with Carbines should lose flat out!
A Master Smuggler/pistoleer/tka should be strong. And there's no way for them not to be. You spend so many points onone prof, and get however powerful that is, then you spend more points, and get more skills, and are stronger. That combo is strong, because it is one proffession, plus another, plus another. Why isn't that logical?
And now about the part I underlined.. you're nuts. Not only lose, but lose flat out. You say this is because a pistoleer uses more pistol experience. A Carbineer has more carbine XP, so the BH loses still. BH doesn't take ANY melee XP, so all the Melee classes would win, and commando takes more heavy weapons XP, so the BH loses again. A Smuggler needs more pistol XP. They're not even a pure combat class, but since they take more XP, they'd beat a BH. Please tell me, who WOULD a BH beat? What kind of XP do they have more of than anyone else? I'll tell you. Bounty hunter XP. So in a world where skill was based on XP, a BH would only be able to have an even fight against another BH and lose to everyone else. Now THAT'S a proffession.
You say that it shouldn't be based on skill points. I'll let you tell the Bounty Hunters that they sacrificed more time and effort and skill points, but they aren't going to be any better than any other elite proffession, even though Bounty Hunters are supposed to be the powerful badass combatants. That's why it takes so many skill points. If the proffession wasn't supposed to be better, the Devs wouldn't have made it so you have to master two proffessions to even get to novice.
ROBO1964
Mon May 31, 2004 11:33 pm
#13
Thats why I am staying as a Master Bounty Hunter. They are the only class that is same from being nerfed as they already stated that the BH are underpowered from what the intended so whether the raise BH up or nerf everyone down I can't help but improve.
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