Pistoleer Archive
Thread: A proposed experiment between Riflemen and Pistoleers
Out of curiosity what was yours and his HAMs migrated to? If its the standard buff ready 400/400/1100 then yeah, its easy to get a shot in for that much damage, wondering if HAM bars were a little more even if pistols might have more of a chance. Also what ranges were you at, close or long?
I'm one of the few rifleman that agree with the rest of you that we do need some toning down a bit (to put it mildly). And also it may not be entirely uncalled for a rifleman beating a pistoleer 9 times out of 10. This is of course assuming that a pistoleer can beet a carbineer 9 times out of 10 and a carbineer can beat a rifleman 9 times out of 10. That there is another form of ballance, and the kind I would push more for, cause lets face it, if we all had an equal chance of beating any other person it would take some of the fun out of it, and remove the need for team work. With the rock paper scissors you could always be on the lookout for easy carbineer prey, while cowering from us rifleman, etc etc...
I never said we weren't overpowered, never said pistoleer was a perfectly working class.
The point here is to find out just how overpowerd rifles are and how broken pistols are in comparison. Please note that I intend to do this same thing with rifles vs carbines and carbines vs pistols (though I was going to wait till the patch that "fixes" carbineers to do this). As far as armor goes, here's the way I see it, rifleman are way out far away, blasting with thier big guns at armor plating, while you rifleman should be able to get up close and shoot at armor joints and such, hitting the "weak spots" in the armor. To that end giving pistoleers a shot that had a probablility of bypassing armor all together. Same thing for fencers and swordsmen. Swordsmen bash on armor as hard as they can, fencers aim for the weak spots.
Devs have listened to player recomendations in the past (like once I think, but hey) maybe they'll listen again IF we can come up with good workable suggestions.
Ya I'll help you, just to prove the devs wrong, eh.
U'Risidoenzu
Eaca wrote:
I never said we weren't overpowered, never said pistoleer was a perfectly working class.
The point here is to find out just how overpowerd rifles are and how broken pistols are in comparison.
Now what you originally posted.
The point of this experiment is to see the relative power of each class without the outside interference of other classes, such as doctor, chef, and armorsmith. From what I have gathered and infered from Dev postings is they never concieved the entire population doning composite, running around with doc buffs, while trying to maintain as many other buffs on them as possible, stomach, spice timer, and entertainer availbility pending.
What your really trying to do it seems is gauge just how far from "balanced" these two professions get if buffs/armor did not matter like they do today. And I have to say I see little usefullness in this considering the professions your trying to compare against. They are both borked, for rifleman theyare borked in a way that makes them overpowered, and pistoleers are borked in a way that makes them underpowered. Couldn't of found 2 worse professions to compare against. Honestly a fencer/pikeman comparison might make moresense... or fencer/swordsman. Melee in general is less "broken" than ranged.
Please note that I intend to do this same thing with rifles vs carbines and carbines vs pistols (though I was going to wait till the patch that "fixes" carbineers to do this). As far as armor goes, here's the way I see it, rifleman are way out far away, blasting with thier big guns at armor plating, while you rifleman should be able to get up close and shoot at armor joints and such, hitting the "weak spots" in the armor. To that end giving pistoleers a shot that had a probablility of bypassing armor all together. Same thing for fencers and swordsmen. Swordsmen bash on armor as hard as they can, fencers aim for the weak spots.
And both fencer and pistoleers both have guns with damage types available to them that DO bypass most armor. But rifleman do too. Unless your suggesting I be able to use my FWG5 for example against a fully buffed opponent and despite that shoot thru his armor anyway.
Devs have listened to player recomendations in the past (like once I think, but hey) maybe they'll listen again IF we can come up with good workable suggestions.
Before you can make recommendations, you need to first identify a problem, prove the problem, THEN suggest the recommendation to fix it. Honestly from start to finish your sounding like a "I hate buffs/armor cuz I get my noob ass beat down all the time" kinda guy. I realize this may not be the case, but my point is your post could be better thought out as to what your going to test, and why and to what end. But it's hard to ignore the slant I see in your post against buffs/armor.
Youare looking toblame problemson buffs/armor once you have systematically ignored all other variables - That sums up the way your post represents itself to me.
Eaca, I think its nice your doing a test, but I have a few things to say...
Armor and buffs I dont beleive are REALLY the problem here, its the disparity between the professions. I'm ignoring player ability and intelligence here, and saying, skill vs. skill of the profession itself, rifleman is vasty superior to pistoleer for a number of reasons. These reasons will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in your test I guarentee.
Firstly, pistoleer fires just as fast(even slower in a few cases) then rifleman, yet has only 2 functional ham attacks, one, which unbuffed, in PvP does as much damage to the enemy as it does to us, the other does so little damage its not worth using, every other attack is random ham. I realise rifleman is nearly identical, except lets remeber, A)your target ham attack hits mind, unhealable after you take 2 blue milks, or unhealable if you have eaten food previously. B)Your random ham attacks hit for significantl more damage.
Secndonly, your accuracy is much MUCH higher then ours. We are supposed to be the profession of runner and gunners. However, our accuracy is the lowest in the game, of all elite combat professions. Our guns themselves, almost to a T have accuracy modifies that negate our accuracy bonus anyway. Add that to the fact that while moving our paultry +30 while moving does nothing to help us, and you realise, we just are built to not hit a damn thing. When they incrased the rifleman accuracy, they severly nerfed ours in turn simply because we no longer have our "combat niche" Combine this with your damage per second, and theres no area in which pistoleer "outshines" rifleman, not on the move, not in damage, not up close, and certainly not far away.
Not that I dont salute some in rifleman admitting you are overpowered and attempting to pinpoint exactly WHY you, but in the end I personally feel as if its a moot point. I mean your test is to find out how much BUFFS and ARMOR add to the disparity between the professions. Which in the end solves nothing really. The test should be about the disparity of the professions themselves. But again, you will find everything I said above is the gospel truth, and when you are done, you will feel nothing but pitty for pistoleers.
KnightHawk420 wrote:
Eaca wrote:
I never said we weren't overpowered, never said pistoleer was a perfectly working class.
The point here is to find out just how overpowerd rifles are and how broken pistols are in comparison.
Now what you originally posted.
Arguing over semantics. The real question that I want to know the answer to, if nothing than my own knowledge, is how the two professions stack against each other on an equal field. I can't help but recall a time just a few months after launch when everybody was calling for the nerf of pistoleers because you all were too strong, and rifleman were the laughing stock of the cosmos. I honestly don't know what happened between then and now (beyond the nerf of some BH shots and FWG5's, and boosting rifle accuracy, defense, and possibly some borked melee defense code) but somewhere along the way things flipped in a big way.
The point of this experiment is to see the relative power of each class without the outside interference of other classes, such as doctor, chef, and armorsmith. From what I have gathered and infered from Dev postings is they never concieved the entire population doning composite, running around with doc buffs, while trying to maintain as many other buffs on them as possible, stomach, spice timer, and entertainer availbility pending.
What your really trying to do it seems is gauge just how far from "balanced" these two professions get if buffs/armor did not matter like they do today. And I have to say I see little usefullness in this considering the professions your trying to compare against. They are both borked, for rifleman theyare borked in a way that makes them overpowered, and pistoleers are borked in a way that makes them underpowered. Couldn't of found 2 worse professions to compare against. Honestly a fencer/pikeman comparison might make moresense... or fencer/swordsman. Melee in general is less "broken" than ranged.
How can I make reasonable requests for fixes of my own class if I don't understand the classes I'm trying to fix it against. I've been a rifleman for a long long time, and honestly have no desire to master pistoleer or carbineer to see it from your side that much. BUt I do want to get a general idea of how the classes are stacking up to each other as it stands now, which is what I proposed.
Please note that I intend to do this same thing with rifles vs carbines and carbines vs pistols (though I was going to wait till the patch that "fixes" carbineers to do this). As far as armor goes, here's the way I see it, rifleman are way out far away, blasting with thier big guns at armor plating, while you rifleman should be able to get up close and shoot at armor joints and such, hitting the "weak spots" in the armor. To that end giving pistoleers a shot that had a probablility of bypassing armor all together. Same thing for fencers and swordsmen. Swordsmen bash on armor as hard as they can, fencers aim for the weak spots.
And both fencer and pistoleers both have guns with damage types available to them that DO bypass most armor. But rifleman do too. Unless your suggesting I be able to use my FWG5 for example against a fully buffed opponent and despite that shoot thru his armor anyway.
Yeah, something like that, a single target joint shot that can be used with any gun and has a certain % chance of bypassing armor resists and doing full damage.
Devs have listened to player recomendations in the past (like once I think, but hey) maybe they'll listen again IF we can come up with good workable suggestions.
Before you can make recommendations, you need to first identify a problem, prove the problem, THEN suggest the recommendation to fix it. Honestly from start to finish your sounding like a "I hate buffs/armor cuz I get my noob ass beat down all the time" kinda guy. I realize this may not be the case, but my point is your post could be better thought out as to what your going to test, and why and to what end. But it's hard to ignore the slant I see in your post against buffs/armor.
Youare looking toblame problemson buffs/armor once you have systematically ignored all other variables - That sums up the way your post represents itself to me.
Thats what I'm trying to do, identify the problem. I get told all the time that rifleman never miss from up close, that our rifle accuracy at 0m is as good as a pistoleers, I just want to see if this is true (if it is its messed up). Though I do recall a time again where pistols hit as good as rifles did at 64m, so its entirely possible the devs over compensated. As far as me getting "my noob ass beat down all the time" its kinda the opposite. My PvP record while buffed and armored is almost 10:1 because I AM a rifleman, hitting mind through armor. I just think its kinda messed up cause all I am is a rifleman, no medic, no other classes except master musician and entertainer. A master musician shouldn't own the battle field because she has on 80% composite with stun layer helmet, doc buffs, food, spice. and a jawa ion blaster. Heck I can even take on stacker templates pretty good with my E11 that has +169 @ 54m and a stun shot, which is pretty sad for having less than half my skill points put into combat. Even my non-buffed non-armored PvP matches aren't too bad, I lost countbut its about 1:1.
I'm just tired of all the people wanting to nerf my favorite class, so I decided to learn a bit more about others and see if we can identify the discrepancies and pass those along to the devs. I realize that this is a dev job, but lets face it, they pretty much made a game who's complexities ran away with themselves, so now we have two choices, move along to another game (whichI have no desire to go back to a fanasy based MMO) or help these poor guys fix themselves so we can all have fun