Pilot Archive

Thread: RotW Fighter Problem = JTL Beta Issue?

Raptor2k1
Mon May 23, 2005 2:17 pm
#1

After thinking about this some, I think I've figured out why all the new JTL fighters seem out of balance, yet the devssaw itfit to add them. The JSF, greivous and heavy tier 1's added all have the manuevering stats of light fighters (only one that kinda throws me off is the ARC, no clue why it has the YPR stats it does).


Now at this point, I know you're all thinking "Well DUH!" but please let me continue...


Back in beta, light fighters were introduced as being very light ships that were very manueverable, but had a lot of "sliding". This is where you can basically be heading one direction while aiming in another.


Prior to RotW, all light fighters in the game were severely handicapped by their extremely low mass, so you couldn't fit engines in them with very strong yaw, speed, etc.


It didn't occur to me until just now that YPR was exactly how they decided how much "sliding" a ship experiences (thanks to Tomo mentioning how YPR effected the JSF in one of the other threads)


Enter RotW fighters. Almost all of the new fighters enter with light fighter YPR, yet heavy mass. What does this mean? It means that light fighters, which used to be hindered by the very low mass, can now be loaded up with insane engines. This is why everything like the JSF seems really imbalanced.


It's not that they out-turn everything else in existance. The problem being experienced is that the JSF and other RotW fighters experience "sliding" while turning. This explains why other pilots report being shot from weird angles and seemingly never being able to catch them. This sliding effect means that they can turn the same as another fighter, yet still shoot it, because they gain a significant amount of aiming leverage (imagine turning at the same rate, but one of the fighter can tilt 45 degrees one way to shoot at the other while turning.


This problem is actually something wrong with the light fighter physics/YPR - not anything JTL specific. It wasn't until now that large engines could be fit inside of light ships, so we had no idea this problem might have even existed. What we're seeing now, I believe, is a resurrection of the semi-slidy physics from the latter days of JTL beta in the form of ships that still have high slide values inherent from their YPR (since they can actually out-turn their inertia and momentum).


The solution then, it seems, is to go back and do another balance pass on light fighter YPR in light of new higher mass light fighters in order to reduce sliding effects somewhat - otherwise we return to those lovely ice-skating dances where two fighters spin around in circles while keeping a lock on eachother the entire time (I'm not sure light fighter sliding with high end engines is that bad, but the fundamental point remains).


Perhaps leave the newbie fighters as the current light fighter YPR, but modify the new heavier mass 'light' ships to have less sliding and be more interceptor-esque?



Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


CuchulainnDarklight
Mon May 23, 2005 2:59 pm
#2

Hmm, interesting.

I thought the extra manouverability they have was derived from the chassis inherent YPR acceleration rates.

That means that although an A-wing and z95 heavy have the same engine the z95 turns faster as when you decide to turn it acelerates to the engines max turn speed quicker.

So, in a dogfight the slightest nudge of your joystick will send the new ROTW ships flying off in a new direction insanely quick that no preROTW ship can manage!




...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
Raptor2k1
Mon May 23, 2005 3:29 pm
#3

That's what I'd thought too, until I'd given it some more consideration.


Basically, YPR does control how quickly you can change direction. However, programmed in with the JTL engine is a physics system that gives ships momentum (chassis dependent I think?) This causes sliding in the light fighters categroy. My theory is that this is what's causing the new ones to seem uncharacteristically maneuverable (since, if I'm correct, they can point one direction while flying another to some degree).




Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


CuchulainnDarklight
Mon May 23, 2005 4:00 pm
#4






Raptor2k1 wrote:

That's what I'd thought too, until I'd given it some more consideration.


Basically, YPR does control how quickly you can change direction. However, programmed in with the JTL engine is a physics system that gives ships momentum (chassis dependent I think?) This causes sliding in the light fighters categroy. My theory is that this is what's causing the new ones to seem uncharacteristically maneuverable (since, if I'm correct, they can point one direction while flying another to some degree).






Thats what I mean -


YPR on an engineis the max speed at which your ship ypr's at


YPR accel (from ship management screen) determines the rate at which you achieve this max ypr therefore this determines your manouverability (the speed at which you change direction)


So these hypermanouverability stats of the new ships plus this physics model which governs inertia being linked to the new ships mass (they have mass/inertia like an X then) causes these ships to turn really fast and handbrake turn whiule they do it leading to them flying backwards as you sometimes see!






...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
Raptor2k1
Mon May 23, 2005 11:09 pm
#5

Weird, no one else has any comments? Given the flamability of the issue and seeming desire of people to chime in I thought there'd be more feedback (which I'm really looking for - I want to helpsettle this issue if it's possible).


To re-iterate: I think the light fighter physics and YPR didn't get balanced properly back in beta.



Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


djlowballer
Mon May 23, 2005 11:23 pm
#6

whats awesome in my oppinon is this is the most intelligent argument against a broken game mechanic I have ever seen on these forums. Everywhere else its rabble about jedi, bh, Last ditch, story coherency. Here, you guys are discussing the physics of your ships and alot of other stuff. you spacers are steps above the rest of us.

/salute
CuchulainnDarklight
Tue May 24, 2005 8:34 am
#7






Raptor2k1 wrote:

Weird, no one else has any comments? Given the flamability of the issue and seeming desire of people to chime in I thought there'd be more feedback (which I'm really looking for - I want to helpsettle this issue if it's possible).


To re-iterate: I think the light fighter physics and YPR didn't get balanced properly back in beta.





I think there is more to the balance of the new ships than just the YPR/inertia thing. They still dont fit in the current baloance system if you ignore the YPR part of their stats.




...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
Raptor2k1
Tue May 24, 2005 8:18 pm
#8

Bleah, why can't my posts ever get feedback? You'd think with 3 pages of flame warsabout the JSF folks would want to at least look at an alterntative approach/view to balancing the new fighters.





I think there is more to the balance of the new ships than just the YPR/inertia thing. They still dont fit in the current baloance system if you ignore the YPR part of their stats.





That might be true as well, but the first step is figuring out if light fighters arebalanced/working properly, and if in fact the new ships should fall under light fighter category.

Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 05-24-2005 08:18 PM



Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


CuchulainnDarklight
Tue May 24, 2005 8:28 pm
#9






Raptor2k1 wrote:


Bleah, why can't my posts ever get feedback? You'd think with 3 pages of flame warsabout the JSF folks would want to at least look at an alterntative approach/view to balancing the new fighters.








I know why.


But if I say so there will be loads of flames!


Ok, here goes


1. Those that flame "NERFS ARE BAD, NO NERFS YOU REBEL CRYBABIES!" are not exactly advanced pilots, nor are they possessive of normal, let alone advanced faculties such as deductive reasoning.


2. Those that flame "NERF THE JSF, ITS UBER AND PWNS ME!" are also not exactly advanced pilots, nor are they possessive of normal, let alone advanced faculties such as deductive reasoning.


3. Those that post "I believe that we need a blance pass for the new ships to integrate them into the current working system because ........" are advanced pilots,and are possessed of advanced faculties such as deductive reasoning.


Options 1 and 2 havent a clue what your talking about and option 3 are scratching their heads going "Hmm, I never thought about that, ;et me think on it awhile before I lay out a structured reasoned post."


If you want the flamer trolls in you could always try translating everything into leetspeak so they could understand what you post!




...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
Raptor2k1
Tue May 24, 2005 8:29 pm
#10

Looks like I need to dig up that AOL translator then.



Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


CuchulainnDarklight
Tue May 24, 2005 8:33 pm
#11

Can you believe that here in the Uk they say kids are allowed to answer exams in leetspeak textmessaging crap?


My god, Im starting to think whats the world coming to, AND IM NOT OLD!


If anyone said "Im uberleet, your a noob!" to me in real life I would very shortly be serving a VERY long prison sentence, know what I mean?




...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
Loki_Ashaman
Tue May 24, 2005 9:01 pm
#12

Interesting theory, but the one thought that keeps popping up in my mindis that during Beta we did have high speed - YPR engines. Engines having YPR of 95+ were very common, and quite a few people kept using the older loot even as changes were made (to some extent making any 'testing' they did irrelevant')... I can't remember the mass on those, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few weren't floating around in noob ships towards the end, after all the mass of the older Beta loot was extremely light until before the mass balance passes. I don't recall if there is was an equipment wipe or not towards the end, so I might be talking smoke.


Other then that thought, I think your theory holds merit. I was fighting an A-wing mid last week in my JSF, and another JSF was engaged too: I could believe how he seemed to hang over my ship shooting in perpendicular to my ship at our target... yet that's exactly the flight style for awhile in beta, I could make a TIE bomber hold a frightening slide after a little practice seeming to pivot around an enemy, doesn't seem that far-fetched that that is what a JSF (or other RotW) ships are doing.


Might be interesting to have a few people test this out, not actually dueling (so no damage, thus can be observed longer)but circling each other while a 3rd party stands still watching to record the flight characteristics.





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Mardius Ashalar, Commissar: Commander of the Daishi
Larikuj V'neef, DOH Mall: Theed (-5240, 2770)
"A pilot without his attitude is just some guy" - TomoRainer


Raptor2k1
Thu May 26, 2005 11:12 pm
#13

Hmm, anyone with a acces to a JSF/Grievous ship able to help test this out? As a non-wealthyRebel Commando I'm not exactly in the best of positions for taking a closer look at this.



Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum


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