Pilot Archive

Thread: Pilot vs. Chassis, Pilot vs. Equipment

Kehtal
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:11 am
#1
Is it just me? Lately a favorite argument of mine is that there is more to a ship than it's chassis, more to a ship than it's equipment, and I often use myself as an example, though by no means am I an "extraordinary" pilot.


The example of myself I use is from a time when I was talking to an imperial pilot I'd just beaten, a very good friend of mine. We were comparing ship stats, and when we got to engines, we discovered that my engine was drastically inferior in terms of PYR. His engine I believe was 75 PYR, and mine as I have listed in other posts is 68.9/68.9/70.


That was when I flew a Bell-22 exclusively, and in my Bell-22 I never lost to his JSF, and he is a very good pilot, often our fights would leave my mouse hand shaking horriblyit was all I could do to type /lok (my alias for hyperspacing to the lok system) so I could get out of there and calm down.


Now that I fly my A-wing exclusively, I've lost once to him (againsta heavy Scyk) and won once (against his JSF), and If I had been running my tri-cannon instead of my 2500 max .480 effectiveness quickfire blaster, I don't think I'd have lost as I landed six or so shots before I got through his front armor, but that is my mistake, among one other I made which is rather embarrassing (trying to send /tells while dogfighting is bad).


What I'm getting at, is that I think the pilot plays a much larger role in the success of his or her ship than I think is emphasized. Equipment is important, yes, but in my opinion equipment and chassis are not the limiting factors they seem to be and/or have been made out to be. I've watched Advanced x-wings dogfight JSF's successfully 1v1, and indeed I've watched Janu give a group of what I think were two TIE Advanced and an Opressor (there may have even been more) a run for their money in his Adv. X-wing during a pvp event, and he took some down with him. I've watched a-wings outmaneuver JSFs and Heavy Starters (myself and others) with equal or inferior engines (myself is the only example I have of inferior engine/equipment).


I really don't know how to explain it any further, except by saying "A Pilot's success is not solely limited by their ship nor their equipment".


Anyone out there see where I'm going with this or understand what I'm trying to say?





The English language includes more than
250,000 words. Good combinations are still available.
---David Knoebel
Don't forget! People won't read your post unless you use a large, obnoxious and multicolored font!
Halyn
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:18 am
#2
Equipment is important, but a pilot's ability to use whatever equipment he has on hand is far moreso.




Halyn Lance -- Rara Avis Flight School
Common sense is highly uncommon.
...has mastered the Pilot profession.
"I'll type this slowly so even Imperials can understand..."--Michael Stackpole, RS IRC
JanuHull
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:22 am
#3




Kehtal wrote:

Is it just me? Lately a favorite argument of mine is that there is more to a ship than it's chassis, more to a ship than it's equipment, and I often use myself as an example, though by no means am I an "extraordinary" pilot.


The example of myself I use is from a time when I was talking to an imperial pilot I'd just beaten, a very good friend of mine. We were comparing ship stats, and when we got to engines, we discovered that my engine was drastically inferior in terms of PYR. His engine I believe was 75 PYR, and mine as I have listed in other posts is 68.9/68.9/70.


That was when I flew a Bell-22 exclusively, and in my Bell-22 I never lost to his JSF, and he is a very good pilot, often our fights would leave my mouse hand shaking horriblyit was all I could do to type /lok (my alias for hyperspacing to the lok system) so I could get out of there and calm down.


Now that I fly my A-wing exclusively, I've lost once to him (againsta heavy Scyk) and won once (against his JSF), and If I had been running my tri-cannon instead of my 2500 max .480 effectiveness quickfire blaster, I don't think I'd have lost as I landed six or so shots before I got through his front armor, but that is my mistake, among one other I made which is rather embarrassing (trying to send /tells while dogfighting is bad).


What I'm getting at, is that I think the pilot plays a much larger role in the success of his or her ship than I think is emphasized. Equipment is important, yes, but in my opinion equipment and chassis are not the limiting factors they seem to be and/or have been made out to be. I've watched Advanced x-wings dogfight JSF's successfully 1v1, and indeed I've watched Janu give a group of what I think were two TIE Advanced and an Opressor (there may have even been more) a run for their money in his Adv. X-wing during a pvp event, and he took some down with him. I've watched a-wings outmaneuver JSFs and Heavy Starters (myself and others) with equal or inferior engines (myself is the only example I have of inferior engine/equipment).


I really don't know how to explain it any further, except by saying "A Pilot's success is not solely limited by their ship nor their equipment".


Anyone out there see where I'm going with this or understand what I'm trying to say?





Yeah, sometimes, it is the ship. I've tangled with Dmitry and his Heavy Scyk in my A-Wing and never saw him in my forward view for more than a couple seconds. Dropped the exact same engine in my Heavy Z-95 and went up against him, and unless we use missiles (which we pretty much do now everytime) I'll outturn him almost effortlessly.


Now, this being said, there are alternatives. You can always change up tactics and fly something other than the circle dance that duelling dogfights normally end up in and try jousting. If you're near asteroids or the ISD, I've found ducking under cover effective sometimes too. If the guy's got a ship that out turns yours, its foolish to delude yourself that you can push your machine further than the components you have will allow.





Janu Hull
CertifiedjWing Nut
CFA
"This is not the ground game, please see a therapist for your outrage."

BeakerMike
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:22 am
#4
Old saying, it's not what ya got it's how you use it.



Ashen Katarna
Ace Rebel Pilot
Kehtal
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:28 am
#5




JanuHull wrote:



Yeah, sometimes, it is the ship. I've tangled with Dmitry and his Heavy Scyk in my A-Wing and never saw him in my forward view for more than a couple seconds. Dropped the exact same engine in my Heavy Z-95 and went up against him, and unless we use missiles (which we pretty much do now everytime) I'll outturn him almost effortlessly.


Now, this being said, there are alternatives. You can always change up tactics and fly something other than the circle dance that duelling dogfights normally end up in and try jousting. If you're near asteroids or the ISD, I've found ducking under cover effective sometimes too. If the guy's got a ship that out turns yours, its foolish to delude yourself that you can push your machine further than the components you have will allow.





I'm not trying toinsinuate that you can, say "overclock" your ship. Rather that it is possible to use it to much greater success than normally thought possiblebecause it is you in the cockpit. Sounds like I'm full of myself, but I'm honestly not trying to brag, I've got nothing to brag about, but I truly believe that a pilot can make up for their ship's "weak" points with their own skill.





The English language includes more than
250,000 words. Good combinations are still available.
---David Knoebel
Don't forget! People won't read your post unless you use a large, obnoxious and multicolored font!
CuchulainnDarklight
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:44 am
#6

Yes skill is important, and so are components. These 2 together can alleviate the chassis differences.


For example, I routinely vape pilots in nubship JSF/BSFs whilst in my Ywing. That chasis is a flying brick but I have components that make it viable in a dogfight against some "uber-leet" fool in a max speed JSF.


However this does not negate the fact that the nubships are horrendously unbalanced, however, it is why many Aces eschew these in favour of "real" ships. It is partly ego, partly pride that makes you fly an underpowered ship and both these are bolstered by countless victories.


I have a standard X, a heavy X, a Ywing (and deuce), exactly equipped to PvP and they allow me to waste nubships with impunity. Cant wait to get my Awing set up for nubship killing, Im tempted to put a lvl10 engine in it and a missile laucher, and nothing more!


EDIT - You can overclock your ship, my lvl 10 engine does wonders for my heavy X and Ywing.

Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-28-2005 07:45 AM




...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
JanuHull
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:46 am
#7




Kehtal wrote:




JanuHull wrote:



Yeah, sometimes, it is the ship. I've tangled with Dmitry and his Heavy Scyk in my A-Wing and never saw him in my forward view for more than a couple seconds. Dropped the exact same engine in my Heavy Z-95 and went up against him, and unless we use missiles (which we pretty much do now everytime) I'll outturn him almost effortlessly.


Now, this being said, there are alternatives. You can always change up tactics and fly something other than the circle dance that duelling dogfights normally end up in and try jousting. If you're near asteroids or the ISD, I've found ducking under cover effective sometimes too. If the guy's got a ship that out turns yours, its foolish to delude yourself that you can push your machine further than the components you have will allow.





I'm not trying toinsinuate that you can, say "overclock" your ship. Rather that it is possible to use it to much greater success than normally thought possiblebecause it is you in the cockpit. Sounds like I'm full of myself, but I'm honestly not trying to brag, I've got nothing to brag about, but I truly believe that a pilot can make up for their ship's "weak" points with their own skill.



Ah, true, but don't rule out mechanics or "dumb luck", we can play them down in this forum while boasting and bragging (which is healthy to some extent), but we also have to acknowledge that at least some of our success is that kick ass RE job we got on the QID, or that 2555 Shield covering our ass. Even blind squirrels find nuts in the woods.

Its really about half and half, even a phenomenal pilot in a starter Z-95 is going to be in a little trouble with a mediocre pilot in a JSF.



Janu Hull
CertifiedjWing Nut
CFA
"This is not the ground game, please see a therapist for your outrage."

Kehtal
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:51 am
#8




JanuHull wrote:




Kehtal wrote:




JanuHull wrote:


Ah, true, but don't rule out mechanics or "dumb luck", we can play them down in this forum while boasting and bragging (which is healthy to some extent), but we also have to acknowledge that at least some of our success is that kick ass RE job we got on the QID, or that 2555 Shield covering our ass. Even blind squirrels find nuts in the woods.


Its really about half and half, even a phenomenal pilot in a starter Z-95 is going to be in a little trouble with a mediocre pilot in a JSF.



Well yes of course, I shouldnt have been so vague in my references to chassis, I'm talking about the morepopular PvP ships. And of course I understand that withoutan engineall the skill and talent in the world wouldnt help me. Just saying a pilot can make up for the statistic difference between two ships.






The English language includes more than
250,000 words. Good combinations are still available.
---David Knoebel
Don't forget! People won't read your post unless you use a large, obnoxious and multicolored font!
Raja_Asenn
Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:12 am
#9

I think it's worth mentioning that any two sets of chassis/speed/PYR combinations can just end up favoring one pilot over another in a way that disregards the qualitative value of the numbers.


For instance, I fly a level 8 engine that weighs in around 76/76/75 with a TS of 103 in an a-wing. I tend to do well against fast chassis' with similar engines, and slower chassis' with better engines (like an X or an oppressor with an L10) But I have a very hard time with fast chassis' in slower, lower YPR engines. I have a bloody awful time scoring a hit on an interceptor running a level 6 pre-nerf, no matter who is flying it. Turnfighting doesn't work for me in these instances and I have to fall back on hit and run or other unconventional tactics - which against good pilots I've found just don't play out that well.


My next goal on the road to becoming a genuinely skilled PvP'er is recognizing my opponents speed/radius/chassis profile very early in the fight and adjusting to the right maneuvering scheme accordingly.





spaceTribe.org - pilot chat, loot database analysis and player profiles

"That’s the danger of a righteous cause. You rail against the night so much you become consumed with the task of it, until you have nothing else." -- Sean Sellers
LeaphChausew
Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:30 am
#10
Well in my time, I've flown against 'the best' who at times were flying way better parts than I could ever hope to squeeze in an A-wing chassis mass, but came out on top.

Personally, I think for the average person, pilot and equipment/chassis are pretty equal deciding factors. A mediocre pilot will last longer in a JSF and even longer in an RGI. The same pilot will last approximately four and a half seconds in a TIE Advanced (slight exaggeration but you get the point).

I do know people who I consider good who can do well in pvp if they're flying a Relic, but the ones I consider to be the best are ones who come out on top against the odds, regardless.


I've taken down multiple good pilots flying JSFs at the same time with my A-wing and I wouldn't say I fly 'better' than them as far as raw twitch skills go, but the one thing which has kept me going longer and longer with this A-wing is knowing when to and when not to do certain things. Knowing when to retreat, when to dupe your opponent, when to attack etc. Picture fighting stances in martial arts and adapting to different threats etc. I fly in a minimalist manner as in I don't go out of my way to look fancy. I keep it simple and rather than thinking "Hey! I know, I'll lead my opponent through this complex twisting split S double backflip uber death roll" manouver in order to shake them...I simply move out of the way.


I think the trap is, getting into turning fights where you're both 'wrestling' to out turn your opponent. Those kinds of encounters mean you both end up in each other's sights and the guy with the higher r,p,y is most likely going to win easily.


I guess the lesson is to use your ships disadvantages to your advantage. I mean, when you are sure or guess someone else's ship is going to outperform yours in certain ways...don't fall into the position where they can use their strengths against you. Easier said than done, but I'm 'living' proof that this mentality works.


CuchulainnDarklight
Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:39 am
#11




LeaphChausew wrote:

Well in my time, I've flown against 'the best' who at times were flying way better parts than I could ever hope to squeeze in an A-wing chassis mass, but came out on top.

Personally, I think for the average person, pilot and equipment/chassis are pretty equal deciding factors. A mediocre pilot will last longer in a JSF and even longer in an RGI. The same pilot will last approximately four and a half seconds in a TIE Advanced (slight exaggeration but you get the point).

I do know people who I consider good who can do well in pvp if they're flying a Relic, but the ones I consider to be the best are ones who come out on top against the odds, regardless.


I've taken down multiple good pilots flying JSFs at the same time with my A-wing and I wouldn't say I fly 'better' than them as far as raw twitch skills go, but the one thing which has kept me going longer and longer with this A-wing is knowing when to and when not to do certain things. Knowing when to retreat, when to dupe your opponent, when to attack etc. Picture fighting stances in martial arts and adapting to different threats etc. I fly in a minimalist manner as in I don't go out of my way to look fancy. I keep it simple and rather than thinking "Hey! I know, I'll lead my opponent through this complex twisting split S double backflip uber death roll" manouver in order to shake them...I simply move out of the way.


I think the trap is, getting into turning fights where you're both 'wrestling' to out turn your opponent. Those kinds of encounters mean you both end up in each other's sights and the guy with the higher r,p,y is most likely going to win easily.


I guess the lesson is to use your ships disadvantages to your advantage. I mean, when you are sure or guess someone else's ship is going to outperform yours in certain ways...don't fall into the position where they can use their strengths against you. Easier said than done, but I'm 'living' proof that this mentality works.






When outnumbered, having good situational awareness is a great boon. On several occassions I have manouvered several enemies so that I constantly have something to shoot at and their shots are scaring each other.


In most ships I just do a head to head as I know i cna absord most peoples fire, if they manouvere then I cut power and get around quick to finish them before the reorient,, if they dont they die.


Other than that, I have no tactics, I just make them up on the fly, so to speak, and it normally works.






...has mastered the Pilot profession
The above post does not represent the views or beliefs of the poster, his countrymen or government, or anyone he remotely knows or has heard of, though in a perfect world he would be the government and his word law. The above post is also wholly fictitious, and any resemblance to any persons or entities living or dead is purely coincidental. Unless, it sounds really cool, in which case its all true, really.
Use the test centre avatar if you have any issues with the NGE or SOE, like me!
FLMOPE
Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:07 pm
#12
I would put the factors in any PVP fight as this


Pilot skill. Under this category I would put.


A. Reactions. The raw physical talent to translate thought to action.


B. Knowledge. The smarts to know what maneuvers to make and when to put you in the best spot to win.


Under this same heading I would put information needed to make good decisions. By this I mean knowing your ship and just what it does best and what it doesn't do well. Hand inhandwith this knowledge is knowing your opponents ship and its strengths and weaknesses.


C. Instinct. Another god given ability. Call it situanal awareness or just plain gut instinct it just pays to have eyes in the back of your head.


Chassis and Equipment


Chassis. Outfitted poorly a JSF only advantage is a small hitbox.Achassisis only as good as the equipment loaded in it. Only if a chassis is loaded out well can it take advantage of it's built in strengths and negate some of it's shortcomings


Said here before by others. Good equipment won't make you a good pilot. Just keep you alive a few seconds longer.


Luck


Sometimes you just zig when you should have zagged. With so many variables going on during a PVP sometimes stuff just goes bad for you or your opponent.

I can vividly remember a fight that went back and forth for several minutes. All of a sudden I rolled. pitched and the A-wing I was just trying to avoid fly right in front of my nose. Bang........fight over.


Summary. IMHO Pilot skill is the deciding factor in almost all PVP fights.A great example of this is two fights I had recently. A friend "loaned" his A-wing out to a guildmate to try it out.I dueled this pilot in my TIE Advanced. The fight lasted about two minutes. I made the kill with not much more than a high speed head on pass, turn and shoot. Shortly afterward I dueled the friend of mine back in his A-Wing. Same exact chassis and equipment. Different pilot. The fight lasted for 5+ minutes and ended when I zoned out after losing both guns.


Agood chassis and greatequipment can makea difference only when you are facing comparable or inferior pilots. In a fight between pilots of equal skill and equipment most often the first mistake is the last.


Cyd Outlander


Pilot


Shipwright


Everything else is filler






Cydarien Outlander Imperial ACE Pilot. Shipwright. Everything else is filler.
Praetor Darkmind Rebel Ace Pilot. Master BH Nothing to hunt..

Don't gloat when you win and NEVER whine when you lose.
Never stand begging for what you have the power to earn.

Revenant 5

607th New Avalon Fighter Wing
FilanVader
Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:55 pm
#13
the chassis is highly effective in this though, odds are pilots of equal skill if you had one in a Y-Wing and one in a JSF the JSF would win. of course if the Y-Wing pilot had a tailgunner it might be different.......
Page 1 of 2
Previous Next