Pilot Archive
Thread: UNBALANCED SHIP DISCUSSION
Ok, let me see if I can say this without pissing people off...
The only thing "wrong" with the Vaksai/ARC/Heavy-X is that they take people out of their comfort zone. The veteran pilot community has tuned their ships to pretty much do one thing; fight a turning battle against other highly manueverable ships. Now along comes these new ships which require a different set of tactics, both for their pilots and their opponents and I think its making some folks a little nervous. So, rather than look towards modifying one's tactics to accommodate the new challenge, I think some would prefer to declare them (somewhat arbituarily in my view) as "unbalanced". I've heard the arguments; I've looked at the specs. As I stated in the other thread, the speed/mass advantage of these ships are more than offset by their huge asses. Let's face it, if you can pop an A-wing or a TIE, how could you possibly miss a Vaksai/ARC/Heavy-X? No, you won't likely bring it down with a single hit, but if you can hit it once, you can hit it again. The key is tactics. Sure, these ships may be able to pack enough firepower to one shot you, but as a Freelancer I can tell you that trying to hit a tiny ship while dodging its fire is not easy. If I miss I know that the other ship is going to be on my butt way before I can turn around, and unless my speed can take me out of range, I'm dead.
These new ships add an additional dimension to space combat. They have a distinct role in a battle as high speed interceptors patrolling the fringes of a battle then diving in to pick off the unwary. It also means that a pilot needs to be able to do more than just fly in circles. If space is the skill based game we say it is, then we should be able to adapt.
As for the JSF/Bel, I agree that they are a bit much at the moment, although I don't think they represent the extreme threat to game balance that they are portrayed to be. That said, I don't think they really add anything to the mix either. Space would still be a turning game, only with different ships. The heavy variants share the same specs as these ships except for size. I feel that this makes them more or less balanced when compared to the JTL ships in spite of having more mass.
As I said previously, balance is not about all ships having the same specs; it's about each ship having a balanced set of pluses and minuses. And being a pilot is not about pushing to make sure that the one tactic you have practiced over and over again remains viable, but rather about pushing the envelope with your skills to accomodate whatever you may face. In my opinion, to do otherwise is an admission that space is really no different that the ground game. And if that's the case, we might as well let the Jedi use their force powers and let Smugglers fly any ship they want.
KIDDING!!!
Honestly: just kidding TBH I must be doing something wrong: theres 10k free left on mine 
RGI aside, my only issue with the Heavy Varients, Heavy X, Actis, B-22, ARC, and possibly even the Vaksai is that they have no downside. Again, old argument, look at pre-RotW ships. Heavy ships existed, but they suffered in handling. Light ships handle great, but suffer in the mass department. When loading out a ship you had to make choices - a light fighter wouldn't hold a great gun, engine, and shield, somewhere you had to have a tradeoff. A heavy ship would pack whatever you wanted, but you knew you'd be flying a big monstrous beast that handled worse and was an easier target.
The Heavy X-Wing and ARC probably bother me the least because both of them present a nice large target (still unbalanced though, IMHO). They still handle far too well for their size, but not on the scale offered by the other RotW ships.
When you can get everything you want out of one chassis, that's unbalanced. It has nothing to do with older pilots being set in their ways. When RotW first came out I loved the Actis, and flew it everywhere. When I moved to my TIE I discovered a whole new world of mass management and pilot skill, and became much the better for it.
Actually I think these ships put the people flying them into a comfort zone. I'm not that worried about these ships, but by the same token, why is it such a big deal to fly a normal x? Or a heavy scyk? Because flying ships like the heavy-x and ARC give people an advantage they don't want to give up. It's that simple. This is going back to the discussion on the boards about the IGI. If restricting the use of the heavy-x, vak, and ARC is abitrary, then so is restricting the IGI. "It's bugged" someone says. Really? Are we sure? Or was it simply designed to be that hard to hit? This ship has been de facto banned from anything, without one single shred of actual (developer acknowledged)proof that it is bugged. Opinions vary on the hitbox size and location. I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, but I'm honestly a bit tired of people deciding everyone else's "overpowered" , or "bugged" ship isn't acceptable, but theirs is. I understand people's desire to fly the ships they like, but i just really don't see what the big deal is about flying a JTL ship. But either way, I'm glad everyone has kept the discussion friendly and intellectual, instead of making it a flame war. I think that shows a lot about our pilot community, and a good mark for our future.
Attacca wrote:
RGI aside, my only issue with the Heavy Varients, Heavy X, Actis, B-22, ARC, and possibly even the Vaksai is that they have no downside. Again, old argument, look at pre-RotW ships. Heavy ships existed, but they suffered in handling. Light ships handle great, but suffer in the mass department. When loading out a ship you had to make choices - a light fighter wouldn't hold a great gun, engine, and shield, somewhere you had to have a tradeoff. A heavy ship would pack whatever you wanted, but you knew you'd be flying a big monstrous beast that handled worse and was an easier target.
The Heavy X-Wing and ARC probably bother me the least because both of them present a nice large target (still unbalanced though, IMHO). They still handle far too well for their size, but not on the scale offered by the other RotW ships.
When you can get everything you want out of one chassis, that's unbalanced. It has nothing to do with older pilots being set in their ways. When RotW first came out I loved the Actis, and flew it everywhere. When I moved to my TIE I discovered a whole new world of mass management and pilot skill, and became much the better for it.
Well, I want my Vaksai to have a speed of 120 and turn like an A-wing; but it ain't going to happen. If I try to outfit it like a huge A-wing, I will have to give up speed. If I want it to be fast, I have to give up manueverabliity. No matter what I do, it will never be able to match the small JTL ships in a turning battle. In order to be viable, I have to play to it's strengths and mitigate it's weaknesses. Just like any other ship. As for having no downside, I don't see how that could possibly apply to the Vaks/ARC. They are a huge target. A very big downside if your goal is not to get hit.
I just don't feel that balance means that therole of alarge ship in PvP isto be a target drone for pocket fighters. And I stand by my opinion that to some extent this is about change. Moving from a A-wing toa TIE is not that much of a change IMO. Moving from a A-wing to a Vaksai is much more dramatic as you will have to employ different tactics and a different flying style to be successful.
.Bah! Forums ate my initial post.
Most of the old-time (read: pre-RotW) vets will agree that pretty much all the RotW ships are unbalanced in one way or another. Whether to ban them or allow them is purely a server thing. Starsider generally runs with a "discourage, not ban" attitude towards relics, and we have few pilots left that fly them. The Vaksai is actually seldom seen on Starsider; the heavy X-wing is pretty prevalent, though. The RGI is very rarely seen, and the heavy TIE is pretty common at events. Of course, most of my ramblings are about what happens at events, not in Deep Space--there, anything goes.
Yes, I don't think there's much wrong with the Freelance ships, they're massive but they're not technically meant to be ships of war.
And the way I see it:
Imperials: Low blaster-firepower, high ordanance-firepower, low mass, small hitbox, highly manouverable.
Rebels: high blaster-firepower, low ordanace-firepower, medium mass, medium hitbox, medium manouverability.
Freelance: high blaster-firepower, low ordanace-firepower, high mass, large hitbox, bad manouverability
Oh and my favourite ship is the Rihx - mainly for the styling and I still got 90k free mass on it
Julak wrote:
i find it interesting how some people claim that the eta and the bel are unbalanced and such and are banned form PvP events, i dont get why, why not fight fire with fire? i mena come on if oyu beleive yourself to good to lfy an eta or something becasue you think it is unbalanced, but you get beat by an eta, then wouldnt you not be good enough? so just fight fire with fire and shut up
The problem with that is that most of us don't want composite-in-space syndrome--a reference to the fact that, pre-CU, everyone wore composite armor. And I mean *everyone*.
Because fighting fire with fire is boring.
I'm not interested in attending an event where every pilot on both sides of the battle is in a JSF or a Bel. The same is true of all the veterans in the group I fly with.
Overall there seems to be a migration back to the older ships.