Pilot Archive
Thread: Serious Problem: Target Hit Registered Visually But Deals No Damage Please voice your support!
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ActiveNick
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:35 am
#1
Preamble: I love JTL,I bought my 2 copies for my 2 accounts, I recommend it to all my friends, I'll keep playing it, and I see this as the major boost SWG needed. With all that said...
Ok,I do not mean to toot my own horn, but I'm a good pilot.I ruled the day in the Wing Commander series and especially in the 3 X-Wing, TIE and XvsT games. I mastered all the pilot trainings, I completed all 3 games, I would fly an X-Wing thru the training platforms and gates, single-shot blasting away the 2-pixel high turretson the next platform as I was maneuvering the preceding one, I would whiz around space on an impossible Imperial mission in a sector filled with asteroids where most had turbolasers and dodging it all in my no-shields TIE fighter... Bottomline is: I know how to fly. And I know JTL uses different flight dynamics, which is ok... I was also good in Privateer and Freelancer and other space sims. I can learn a flight model and I can adapt easily, just as long as it all relies on eye-hand coordination. No, I do not want praise, and do not even comment on that part, and I'm not the only one, there are 1000's of awesome pilots in the game out there, you know who you are... I'm just setting the context here.
I LOVE JTL... the easy interplanetary travel and the yacht alone are worth the 30$, but space combat is the big perk. No more buffs, uber composite, brandy, canape, synthsteak, DOT weapons, defense stacking and the likes, now you need actual skill to win, but in JTL, 90% of my pilot skills are wasted since I have to play "guess-where-the-target-is". 
I love to whiz by and take that one perfect shotat an enemy ship flying perpendicular to my flight path and landing the killer blow, I love calculated shots whereI overpower my weapon groups but carefully select each shot because I know most will land, but I have to rely on my eyes and my eye-hand coordination for this, and this is how I ruled Wing Commander and the X-Wing/TIE series. Basically, my style of dogfighting has me taking impossible shots all over the place, not waiting until I am tailing my target and then spam my blasters.
I cannot do this in JTL. I take tons of shots at "ghost ships" that are there but really aren't. I have to guess where my target is. I can sometimes trail a mark dead on, right on their tail at no angle, and my shots still don't do damage, and if I'm at a 5-10 degree angle behind them, then finding the sweet spot is almost pointless since it seemsI have to hit the front. Using missiles also seem pointless since they mostly damage the back of the ship and it seemsI have to land shots on the front to kill. I fire shots, I see the "shield bubble" register the shot... but no damage. 95% of the ships I destroyI had to fire at empty space and never saw my shot land on the hull. It'slike fighting a displacer beast in AD&D, the thing you see is an illusion, the real beast is a few feet away.
Obi-Wan said "Don't trust your eyes, they can deceive you..." but I think this is taking continuity a bit too far. We have to rely on our eyes since none of us are Jedi in RL. We need realistic dynamics built for mere mortals.
Now, I'm a software architect and I specialize in distributed development and multitiered architectures. I know what causes this. I know what the devs are ripping their hair out over. The client and the server positions are not synchronized. My shots register against the client ship and that is whyI see the shield take a hit, but the server says "No, the ship was not there... no damage, sorry!" Sometimes it gets bad, the client/server offset gets really out of sync... and I have to shift speed and do crazy heading changes to try and force a resync somehow... then I see the target ship make a wild unrealistic position shift (i.e warp) in space and I knowI got my resync, and sure enough, my next few shots land the damage I sought.
I know this form of client/server sync problem in a real-time space combat sim is extremely hard to figure out and fix. This is why we would warp off 200m away from our bikes when dismounting.This is also why 17 months after launch we still can't sit on a damn chair and not slide off after a few seconds or sometimes a few minutes. The fact the sitting bug is like the oldest bug in the game kinda kills my hope for a fix to this invulnerability bug in JTL... butI remain hopeful. I know the devs tried many alternatives to fix this, but nothing really worked perfectly.I remember in beta where for a few days, client/server were resync'd almost in real-time and the result was jerky targets that were jumping around all over and were impossible to hit. Fact is, so far, when client and server disagree, the server has the last word. Maybe it's time to review some old rules and think outside the box, maybe it's time for the server to trust the client a little more and concede that client shots should be valid unless the sync offset is really out of whack, or something along those lines. We just cannot keep the current system.
Now,I will not insult the devs by offering architecture or design decision adviceon how to change things. I am not familiar with the specifics of their model, and while I have often dealt with distributed client/server systems, and also with real-time synchronized systems, Inever dealt with both all wrapped up in one big complex system. SWG is a masterful architecture and I tip my hat to the devs for such a state-of-the-art design. Anyone who knows anything about professional software architecture probably agrees with me. All I ask is for everyone to voice their support in here and insist that this problem be put at the highest priority in the JTL pipeline.
This invulnerability bug needs to be fixed, and the passing grade should be 100%, no less. Please make sure this post stays up and voice your support, bump it, comment on it, for the sake of all JTL-related fun!!!
Thanks for reading thus far and your support.
PS. Oh, and if you devs can fix the sitting bug at the same time, we'd be extremely grateful... 
EDIT: I changed the title of the top post to make it easier for others to know what the thread discusses.
Message Edited by ActiveNick on 11-05-2004 02:09 PM
StarWarsFan1972
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:53 am
#2
Amen to that.
Excellent post. I really wish the devs would do something about it as well, or at least give us feedback on where they stand on this issue right now.
Tiggs? TH? A word from you if possible?
Y'oni
Bannon9k
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:58 am
#3
Hrm, just a few curiosity things about your post.
1. Whats your connection speed? I run on a cable modem and I have NONE of the problems you speak of. I damage front and rear of shields on a regular basis. I charge head on to a tie interceptor, I see his shields go to 50% and his armor starts taking damage. I swing around get on the rear end and drop out the other 50% of the shields. Every hit I see on the ship, does damage to that ship.
2. Are you using the targetting system? The lead indicator for the targeting system is not 100% accurate. I love it that way too. Sometimes Ineed to shoot in front of it...sometimes behind it. In order to compensate for this, DO NOT fire all your lasers at once. Instead keep a steady pace of firing and shoot a stream. You get a better idea of whats hitting the target if you do it this way. You can make minor adjustments in your angle alot easier.
3. If your going after targets and not using the targetting system. Well...You either have the eyesight of a hawk, or some kind of "make all the ships glowy" cheat, Cause unless it has some kind of ring around it...I find most ships rather hard to see.
Anyway, if you are playing this game on a slow connection...such as dialup, I believe your just going to have to deal with that problem. As you would with any other game these days. The days of playing X-wing vs Tie fighter are over. Games with that low of detail cant hold the attention of todays gamers. And with higher detail comes the requirment for a faster internet connection.
Raveshaw
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:03 am
#4
Great post ActiveNick! I just hope all that work on a post such as yours actually gets some attention... It really irks me how we don't get more comments from the devs on well written and relevant posts. 
ActiveNick
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:12 am
#5
Bannon9k wrote:
Hrm, just a few curiosity things about your post.
1. Whats your connection speed? I run on a cable modem and I have NONE of the problems you speak of. I damage front and rear of shields on a regular basis. I charge head on to a tie interceptor, I see his shields go to 50% and his armor starts taking damage. I swing around get on the rear end and drop out the other 50% of the shields. Every hit I see on the ship, does damage to that ship.
I play on a very fast cable-modem and my average download speeds are in the 300K+ ranges. My ping is almost always below 150. I also play on a Pentium M/Centrino 1.7 GHz with 1 GB RAM and an ATI Mobility radeon pro Turbo 128MB on Windows XP... Should not be an issue.
2. Are you using the targetting system? The lead indicator for the targeting system is not 100% accurate. I love it that way too. Sometimes Ineed to shoot in front of it...sometimes behind it. In order to compensate for this, DO NOT fire all your lasers at once. Instead keep a steady pace of firing and shoot a stream. You get a better idea of whats hitting the target if you do it this way. You can make minor adjustments in your angle alot easier.
I get "inspiration" from the targetting system but I rely on my eyes and instinct.I know it is not exact and I too have to shoot in front of it or behind it, but my point is my eyes work well. My shots hit the ship a lot and I see the shield bubble register the shot, but damage rarely sinks in... seems like I have to "miss" the ship to get damage.
3. If your going after targets and not using the targetting system. Well...You either have the eyesight of a hawk, or some kind of "make all the ships glowy" cheat, Cause unless it has some kind of ring around it...I find most ships rather hard to see.
I see the ships very very well. I play in extra high resolution in widescreen 1920x1200, seeing ships is really not a problem for me. My eyes can find them fast and extrapolate where I should fire to hit it, targetting computer or not. If only my hits would count.
Anyway, if you are playing this game on a slow connection...such as dialup, I believe your just going to have to deal with that problem. As you would with any other game these days. The days of playing X-wing vs Tie fighter are over. Games with that low of detail cant hold the attention of todays gamers. And with higher detail comes the requirment for a faster internet connection.
As I said, not my case, but thanks for your feedback.
ActiveNick
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:15 am
#7
Raveshaw wrote:
Great post ActiveNick! I just hope all that work on a post such as yours actually gets some attention... It really irks me how we don't get more comments from the devs on well written and relevant posts.
Thanks Raveshaw. I agree. It sometimes seems the devs jump all over the whiner postsor respond to the "TH/TIGGS LOOK HERE" posts, despite them saying they do not.
I too hope my effort in this constructive post do not go wasted, but for that I need to get 5-starred and I need a lot of bumps and support, hopefully the devs will notice then.
But I always remain hopeful and positive.
ActiveNick
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:19 am
#8
meeuki wrote:
i haven't had any problems with this either...
This is really odd that some do not get it at all and others do.I have discussed this in-game with many and I know I'm not the only one. This is the infamous so-called invulnerability bug that even the devs aknowledged in the past which prevents most shots coming from the side to be effective. TH had even recommended once hitting more in the front to hit the nose instead of the side.
You mean to tell me everytime you see your blast hit the shield bubble, you get damage? Damn, you're lucky? What kind of system/connection do you have? Just curious.
jassi007
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:19 am
#9
it is screwy, and a little irritating, but it works. As long as you remember to shoot empty space somewhere between the lead indicator and the ship, you'll land shots. Once I had that figured out, I don't find jtl to be too difficult. Just wish the y-wing wasn't such a pig! 
ddragos
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:19 am
#10
I had no such problems either (I'm on Chilastra). Maybe it's a matter of the server software they're running on your server. Maybe you don't have good enough latency for the server to keep up with you. (And no, having good graphics doesn't require a faster internet connection, all the data that should be transmitted from the client to server is : "myship x y z", and "fire").
meeuki
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:20 am
#11
i mean, you think if it was a code related problem everyone would have the issue? but i'm certainly not having it. or if i am, it's happened sporadically enough to not be gamebreaking in any way.
every single attempt i've made to notice shooting at the target and the result on his shield/etc has registered properly, notably when attempting to disable ships. explain the disparity between your account and mine if your connection is not the issue. also, with what frequency is this occuring? 1 out of 10 shots? 10 out of 10? 1 out of 100?
is it possible something else is going on?
every single attempt i've made to notice shooting at the target and the result on his shield/etc has registered properly, notably when attempting to disable ships. explain the disparity between your account and mine if your connection is not the issue. also, with what frequency is this occuring? 1 out of 10 shots? 10 out of 10? 1 out of 100?
is it possible something else is going on?
meeuki
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:23 am
#12
ActiveNick wrote:
meeuki wrote:
i haven't had any problems with this either...This is really odd that some do not get it at all and others do.I have discussed this in-game with many and I know I'm not the only one. This is the infamous so-called invulnerability bug that even the devs aknowledged in the past which prevents most shots coming from the side to be effective. TH had even recommended once hitting more in the front to hit the nose instead of the side.You mean to tell me everytime you see your blast hit the shield bubble, you get damage? Damn, you're lucky? What kind of system/connection do you have? Just curious.
I've certainly not been keeping track of every single shot i've fired and whether or not it registered or not. But I do know that there are situations where I do keep track of the shots, and I haven't noticed any discrepencies so far.
My connection is cable, and not a particularly good one at that. Athlon 2000, gig of ram, x800 pro ati.
It'd help to know with what kind of frequency you see this so people can test it.
RebalMarineHunter
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:26 am
#13
Played on Beta and here. No such problems on my end while on live. So far I am a 3,3,3,3 pilot, and through teir 3 I only failed 1 mission. Never had missing blaster fire, missing ships, bugged (well, one, but it did not stop the mission just made it too easy) missions, invulnerability spots or anything else like that.
On Beta there was a pixel leak or something like that which would make your blaster fire disapear or your targets or both. That was fixed on day 2 or 3 of live from what I undersand and I have not seen it since.
So, either you are bugged or maybe its your settings. Try messing with your graphics settings? Perhaps its a problem with your video card, new card or driver needed?
Be sure to /bug this regardless and file a ticket to atleast get some kind of response from a Dev. Hope you can get this fixed soon!
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