Pilot Archive
Thread: How to Fix the Jedi Fighter.
omg kitten you are driving me nuts. I can LAST against the tier 5's in a dodge and ditch fight, whare as for pve I like to kill things fast, unless your the type of person who likes hammering on NPC fighters. I like to kill in pve fast, not yawning while shooting over and over at a target.
Your really need to make a toon on ahazi. or Bria. As a vet flight simmer, JTL is childs play to me.
And everyone seems to forget:
An airplane(star-fighter) might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one. — Len Morgan
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it. — Baron Manfred von Richthofen, AKA The Red Baron.
Love that one!
FataIity wrote:
Alyxian you said the JF is fast frighteningy so? how do you mean? The A-Wing and the Interceptror are both faster.
It is faster than both, hands down. Cert 8 engine with insane YPR becuase I can and it is faster. plus, just look at the stats, your arguement makes no sense.
Personally, the number 1 reason I am always against these "nerf" conversations... because just looking through this thread I see a lot of flaming and name calling, accusations and unfair generalizations.
Who cares about PvE, I do. Because though I spend a lot of time in Deep Space on my server (and most servers besides sunrunner.. or is it starsider.. whatever..) the Overt pilots are rare and far inbetween.
"Rebels/Imps are upset about losing their edge!" I find that short-sighted. Most Rebel Ace's that are into PvP on my server I consider friends. Sure, in DS we're combatants but iin the end we're fellow pilots in it for the fun. Yes, many Imp's believe the AWing far outclasses the TIE Intercepoter (mainly due to mass and multiple forward firing guns) Many Rebels see the Advanced as in the same way due to "low profile".... honestly, I've never had a problem with either.
If someone's ship outclasses mine it gives me more of a challenege. Personally, it's not all about the win, it's all about the fight. It's all about meeting up with a skilled opponent who is going to give me a good game.
Ritha is one of the best Rebel Ace's on my server, I consider myself in the top 10 at least Imp Ace's on my server. When we meet in battle no matter what ship we're in, it's usually a pretty long death spiral before one of us gets the advantage over the other. Thats what I want to see preserved.
If "balancing" these ships will mean that when I meet up with an opponent it's a good fight, then I will go along with it without too much belly acheing. On the otherhand, it is more important to me that they FIX THE DANG DROID PROGRAMS which I believe would help balance PvP way more than NERFing 6 ships.
PvP in space had big issues long before ROTW, lets not lose sight of those issues just because we all just got these new ships. If we're going to talk balance for the sake of the game, lets be all inclusive. If we're talking about a NERF because of factional jealousy then "balance" is a lost issue.
Vegitaa wrote:
Personally, the number 1 reason I am always against these "nerf" conversations...
Vegitaa wrote:
Personally, the number 1 reason I am always against these "nerf" conversations... because just looking through this thread I see a lot of flaming and name calling, accusations and unfair generalizations.
Who cares about PvE, I do. Because though I spend a lot of time in Deep Space on my server (and most servers besides sunrunner.. or is it starsider.. whatever..) the Overt pilots are rare and far inbetween.
"Rebels/Imps are upset about losing their edge!" I find that short-sighted. Most Rebel Ace's that are into PvP on my server I consider friends. Sure, in DS we're combatants but iin the end we're fellow pilots in it for the fun. Yes, many Imp's believe the AWing far outclasses the TIE Intercepoter (mainly due to mass and multiple forward firing guns) Many Rebels see the Advanced as in the same way due to "low profile".... honestly, I've never had a problem with either.
If someone's ship outclasses mine it gives me more of a challenege. Personally, it's not all about the win, it's all about the fight. It's all about meeting up with a skilled opponent who is going to give me a good game.
Ritha is one of the best Rebel Ace's on my server, I consider myself in the top 10 at least Imp Ace's on my server. When we meet in battle no matter what ship we're in, it's usually a pretty long death spiral before one of us gets the advantage over the other. Thats what I want to see preserved.
If "balancing" these ships will mean that when I meet up with an opponent it's a good fight, then I will go along with it without too much belly acheing. On the otherhand, it is more important to me that they FIX THE DANG DROID PROGRAMS which I believe would help balance PvP way more than NERFing 6 ships.
PvP in space had big issues long before ROTW, lets not lose sight of those issues just because we all just got these new ships. If we're going to talk balance for the sake of the game, lets be all inclusive. If we're talking about a NERF because of factional jealousy then "balance" is a lost issue.
Alyxian wrote:
Vegitaa wrote:
Personally, the number 1 reason I am always against these "nerf" conversations...
I am against them usually too, nerf is almost never a good thing, but in this case, after flying it myself....I can't see any other option.
As an ex-Teras Kasi and born again Bounty Hunter (pre-Jedi BH, then TKM/Doc) Nothing in these game bothers more than NERF cries. As BH we got nerf'ed into uselessness (pre-jedi.. then fixed), as Teras Kasi everyone and their dog came to our boards screaming for nerf's, as Doctor we had people screaming to NERF buffs , now here I am.. finally found a Prof that I love more than any other in game.. what do I hear now... NERF cries.
I do not support any NERF of anything what so ever. On the otherhand, I can get behind and support BALANCE. These, in my eyes, are two different things.
You can't NERF the JSF without doing the same exact thing to both the ARC and the Greivous (they have the same YPR and honesstly with 120k mass I could load up an absolutely evil ARC, can you say cert10 blaster and Spacebomb 2 Launcher?)
You can't NERF the Hvy Z95 without doing the same to the Hvy TIE/Scykk (again, nearly identical stats.) So lets completely forget about faction in these discussions. Lets look to the numbers. Plenty of good ideas in regards to changes, just don't let any faction bias come into the conversation. If it is balance we seek, then faction is irrelevant. If it is a NERF that people seek than they could care less about what other pilots want.
Seek Balance. Abolish the NERF bat.
Not ONCE have i EVER called for something to be nerfed. Ever. But, you know, theres a first time for everything.
These new Clone fighters. in specfic:
- JSF
- Grevious
- Heavy starter ships.
All three of these need a hit with the nerf bat. They are just not in sync with the rest of the game. Fairly high mass with extremly high YPR. No trade offs at all. The balance wasnt perfect before ROTW, but it is far better than it is now with the introduction of these new ships. I do not understand why the majority of the game should be bolsterd just to offset these latest additions. Its more logical to tone down these three addtions rather then screw with the entire game.
Yea, some people just don't like the word "nerf" and will do anything to avoid it. Even if its to take action that is counter intuitive to the game just to justfy their new toys existance.
The fact remains, this is an MMO game, and MMO is never a finished product. Content comes in and goes out all the time, its the nature of the beast. Sometimes, for one reason or another, mistakes are made by the developers. It happends in just about every game. In every MMO, a nerf has occured at one point or another, its inevitable. No, its not desired, but sometimes its the only clear choice.
For instance, what if SoE were to accidently introduce some Super Rifle of Doom that can kill the toughest monsters in a few hits. What would you suggest then? Buff every other rifle just so you can keep your Super Rifle of Doom? Raise the bar on the entire portion of the game to justfiy the existance of the 1 or 2 types of rifles? The idea is prepostious, and it stands to have a domino effect. Raising the bar on everything else makes all the existing content weaker, and mroe trivial to the players as their power has increased. Now you have to go back and rebalance monsters because they've become too easy. Its like a sweater with a lose thread, pull one end, and it starts to unravel.
Message Edited by Kitten_Starsider on 05-11-2005 04:14 PM
It doesnt mean, to make useless.
Surely others here used to own a (us style) nerf football? It was still a football, just didnt hurt as much when you missed a catch and it hit you in the face
The useage of the word "nerf" in MMO's is rooted in sarchasm.
Rainer Shipyards Something-Or-Other Engine
Level 10
40500 mass
1380 energy drain
100.9 speed
84.9 pitch
84.9 yaw
84.9 roll
RE'd with engines looted in the last few months. Nothing pre-nerf. With my Jedi Starfighter, I was able to take everything in my PVP Interceptor, upgrade the level 6 engine to that level 10, and add an RE'd level 6 gun to pair with the level 7 taken from the Int. I haven't been able to PVP in it yet because my gaming computer's in the shop, but just at a guess.. that's going to be rather nasty to run up against. (Though ironically, the .95 speed mod puts this at exactly the same speed as my pre-nerf 6 in a ship with a 1.0 modifier.)
I occasionally craft complete Advanceds for customers. Here's what I'd go with on a layout with the only RE'd parts being a level 2 cap and a level 6 reward engine, everything else crafted:
2 level 7 guns, quickshot upgrades, 1450-2400 damage (roughly), .260 speed: 14.6K mass each
1 level 7 shield, shield intensifier, 1800 HP, mass experimented: 14.2K mass
1 level 6 RE'd reward engine, 82.2 speed, 65-70 PYR: 10K mass (can find lower, but just going with what's likely to be found on the bazaar)
1 level 3 reactor, 13600+ energy (need it for the high drain on crafted stuff): 3.3K mass
1 level 2 capacitor, 33-36 recharge, 800-900 energy: 1.5K mass
1 level 1 DI, 25 speed: 430 mass
1 chaff launcher: 858 mass
1 level 1 booster, speed upgrade, 34.0 speed, 10 second burn: 1.1K mass
2 level 3 armor plates with HP upgrades, 640 HP: 2.5K mass each
Total: 65600 mass. Alternately, to fit it in at 65K exactly, I'd leave the HP upgrade off one of the armor plates and experiment its mass down a bit. Should end up in the neighborhood of 1.9K mass, 480 HP. Or you can drop those both to level 1s at 240 HP, 1K mass each and use the extra mass on a faster DI, booster, etc., or leave the shield's mass at default (16.8K) and experiment its HP up to 1925, or use a crafted level 7 engine (they actually look okay now) at 13.3K mass.
All in all, that's a pretty viable ship. It can compete in PVP and while it's not as effective in PVE as an Oppressor, it still has enough firepower to get things done.
Of course, bumping a ship like that from 65K to 90K mass doesn't change a whole lot in PVE. It probably just means you'll have a level 8 shield and a level 8 gun instead of 7s. The extra maneuverability and speed will be nice against tier 5 light fighters, strafing runs on Vettes and gunboats, etc., but in general, the extra firepower of a heavy fighter is probably going to remain preferable. In fact, I like the mass on these new ships for PVE. I don't see why they need PYR accel of 600/600/300, but 90-95K mass on the new light fighters might make them useful enough to make them more frequent choices for PVE. I'd probably switch over. My Oppressor would kill most things faster, but even though I use it every day, I hate climbing in that thing. It feels like such a dumptruck compared to my Interceptor.
PVP balance is an entirely different matter.
In my mind, the main advantages heavy fighters used to have were the ability to use level 8-10 engines without sacrifice, to mount heavier shields and armor, and to hit harder. They needed all these advantages to stick up for themselves against an A-Wing or Advanced or other light fighter. With 90-95K mass, though, you can build these ships around any part you want. You can use a level 10 engine. You can use a level 8 engine and have plenty of space for a level 8 shield with plenty of firepower. You can basically kit them out to be able to dish and soak all the damage you need to deal and take in PVP and pair that with the best handling and, in the case of the JSF, the best profile in the game. I don't want to see that. I don't want to see everyone flying this ship in PVP because it's got all the advantages with none of the drawbacks. That collapses a lot of the dimensions we used to have up there.
However, I do agree that the problem isn't as much with the new ships as it is with underlying fundamentals of JTL that were fine with the old ships but quickly became exposed when better versions of old models were introduced. In light of that, and taking into account the very clearheaded mindset about nerfs Vegitaa's expressed so well, I'm wondering if it's finally time to draft up and push for a more complex system that involves chassis modifiers for defense in PVP, handling tied more directly to mass, or any other measure that will better define roles and allow for more diversity and strategy in space.
If anyone's got any ideas on that front, I'd like to hear them. In the meantime, I am going to see about getting the PYR accel on these ships dropped to be in line with current models--600/600/300 just doesn't make sense--but I've been holding back on calling for other cuts until we've had a chance to try out all the new ships and discuss how they fit in with the prior models. Playing with nerfs is always a dangerous game, and I just want to make absolutely certain they're necessary for balance or that we don't have a better solution before I continue to make the case I started once I saw these ships in beta.
TomoRainer wrote : ( A very long well thought out post which clearly shows that we got the right man to do the job of pilot coorespondent!)
/salute
/bowrespectfully
You do us all proud man!
Message Edited by Vegitaa on 05-11-2005 03:17 PM