Pilot Archive

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psikobunny wrote:

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Rogue135 wrote:
Just my personal opinion, but I'd rather see old ships brought in line rather than nerfing the new ones into oblivion.

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In line? Its far easier bringing the 9 new chassis into the realm of the 30+ other ships than it would be to soup up all the others, and all the gear to match. The technology this game runs under has limits (the lag we've all seen in space post RotW is testament to that) and the new ships seem to fall beyond those limits. Time will tell, but I know the Devs would much rather fix 9 ships now than have to do a full SCU (space Combat Upgrade) next year.

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QFE.

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FataIity wrote:

What is with the turn fight hate I see going on? Turn fights take skill, only newbies and people that never pvp in space think you "keep going around"

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Most of us can dogfight just fine. Infact, alot of the ppl who respond to these threads quite often have PvP'ed a fair amount ill wager. I can dogfight just fine. Dogfighting is not the issue. The issue is that we are already going really damn fast. How many times have you gone up against an A with running EO4 with a prenerf engine? I have... often, and let me tell you, its more luck then skill trying to land a hit it. Your both moving so damn fast (yes i ran a T/I with a prenerf and EO4), and sliding around so much, its like your perpetually head on, even though your moving around in a circle fight. On top of that, maybe im just impatient but jinking around for 5+ minutes before someone scores a hit is really freaking boring.

The netcode /client prediction code can barely keep up as it is now. So how now, lets make another fighter thats going to be even faster because it has the mass to load an engine larger and faster then a prenerf reward engine, and turns twice as fast. There is already a problem with the netcode, and we are already plenty fast, these new ships are going to make this even worse.

Message Edited by Ducimus on 05-10-2005 08:10 AM

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KireekSkyfang wrote:

ARC-170 Stats: Mass 125k |Weapons 1 SP, 2 MP | 1 Ordnance |

As for the YPR, I'm not sure how this converts, but:

Yaw Acceleration: 7.0

Pitch Acceleration: 7.0

Roll Acceleration: 3.5

Yaw (Max): 1.2

Pitch (Max): 1.2

Roll (Max): 1.2

(This one confuses me)

Engine Listed Max Speed: 82.2

Max Speed: 797 (no difference with S-foils closed or opened)

so... the Engine rating is around 0.97(? my math could be wrong here)

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Thanks for posting these. I think the PYR accel on that comes out to 400/400/200.. pretty nice for a ship that size. The speed mod's a weird one, too, but .97 looks like the correct math, anyway. I've updated the first post with these stats, though if anyone else would like to post the numbers on their ARC to make sure we've got these right, it'd be appreciated.

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Kitten_Starsider wrote:

I would like to disagree on the issue of the A-Wing being overpowered. Both imperial ships (Tie Interceptor and Tie Advanced) have slightly better maneuverability than an A-Wing. The Tie Interceptor has less mass and is slightly smaller than the Tie Advanced. The Tie Advanced has more firepower due to the second gunslot. So the A-Wings advantage of a small profile was balanced out by the superior maneuverability and/or the added firepower of the imperial Interceptor class ships. I admit small profile is an advantage that weights a bit more than the bit of maneuverability but the advantage is not that big that it can be called imbalanced. We actually do not want ships being identical (which is another sad addition with ROTW). A pilot who is goo in aiming will probably favour the Tie Advanced over an A-Wing as it guarantees him or her getting the shot out first. In return a defensive pilot will preffer the A-wing. No one will do bad with either one as both support the potential of each pilot.

In the Bomber class this advantage is turned around. The oppressor perfectly counters light ships with its firepower and maneuverability which is beyond match of rebel ships. Yes in return our X-Wing counters the Oppressor but since both the Tie Advanced (firepower) and the oppressor (maneuverability)share some characteristics of superiority ships and since Interception type ships counter X-Wings there were always way to counter it.

Thats what I enjoyed about JTL. Balanced yet variety.

But now you have the Jedi Starfighter. It is smaller than the A-Wing so has the biggest advantage in PvP. It is the most maneuverable ship in the game on the same level as the other clone ships so it has the close second advantage in PvP. It has a mass that brings him near superiority type ships so it has the third advantage in PvP. It has two gunmounts so higher firepower and the by far fourth advantage in PvP.

That means: It counters all ships the enemy can throw at you. It dodges superiority ships (interceptor class characteristic) and packs enough firepower to destroy bomber ships (superiority class charecteristic). In it's own class it is the best of the best too.

This is not balanced. First it is imbalanced between the clone ships itself (the other ships have no advantage to balance it out), second it is imbalanced between the new and the old ships (which is all clone ships), third it is imbalanced between the different ship classes as it counters all of them and last (and probably least) it is imbalanced between the factions.

Now where do I want it to go? I personally want mass directly influencing chassis acceleration. This will improve the Tie Inteceptors maneuverability and bring the clone ships in line. Each ship will have its unique maneuverability and the game will be in line with the laws of physics again. Possibly there could be small modifiers for the different tiers so higher tir ships get a slight bonus. That way all ships would be useful and all ships would have advantages and disadvantages.

Additionally, you might add slightly maneuverability penalty for size so small ships do not become what some of us would hate.

Kitten

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Exactly, I've no idea where the Ub3r A-wing idea came from, the TIE-Adv is directly comparable, in fact you could take the components out of an A-wing and stuff them into an Adavance and get better manuverability for equal performance. With the A-wing you get a profile advantage, for less manuverability it seems a fair trade to me.

The new ships on the other hand seem way OTT, 90K+ mass for 0.95-1 spd and max YPR? Not good, fast ships ought to compromise somewhere, and for me the mass and YPR are both too high, what about for the JSF and Grevous ship ~75k mass for 0.95spd 275/257/175? Really the extra mass should have a drawback somewhere, overall these ships should not out perfom the A-wing and TIE-Adv so thourghly. Speed, mass, YPR or a combination of them should be adjusted to compensate.

Gift.

Message Edited by Giftmacher on 05-10-2005 08:48 AM

We still have to see what is capable to do this ship on EP III

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Kitten_Starsider wrote:

I think those stats are the minimum i can live with too. I personally would like the new ships a bit weaker but i can understand that they are new (even if they are old) and thus a bit better than the curent ships. It is stronger but nothing about overpowered.

Again the problem is the mass. Converting ships that are already equipped will be tough as they depend on mass already. Also converting crafted ships (heavy starters) might give issues because of experimentation. It would be nice though if these stats would be possible

Kitten

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Thanks for taking the time to actually read all of that. Maybe tweak the "Heavy" newbie ship mass down a bit, but the whole point in having a "heavy" is more mass. The reason I have it set so high is due to the current mass of the original Scyk (Which is WAY high in my opinion especially compared to the fact that Imp's don't get over 50k mass till Tier3 and thats just the bomber with horrifying YPR)

yeah I've aced all the imperial squads, and I still have yet to fly a TIE Bomber or TIE Aggressor, I don't intend on doing so anyway.

I think pilots who started with Imperial squads end up being far better JTL Pilots then anyone else. When I change from Black Epsilon to RSF I couldn't believe the mass on their ships. I couldn't even come close to filling them. I used the Kimo all the way to ace.

I like what I see as the new 'heavy variant' ships for PvP.

First, it puts everyone regardless of faction on an even footing. Same maneuverability, same nominal mass, and same (basic) firepower. This is crucial because PvP fights can't count on numerical advantages and trade offs can be percieved to favor one side or the other. These new craftable 'heavies' don't have that problem. If the developers did their job right, then the nominal profile (hit box) will be nearly the same too.

Second, everyone who claims to be a good pilot says it's their skills that matter, not the equipment. Well, here you go! Everyone has the same effective stats on maneuverability, firepower, and mass. Real equipment trade-offs are now possible to suit flying skill. You demand higher maneuverability, get a RE'd engine with EO4 going and sacrifice shields or armor. You want higher firepower, get as big a gun and capacitor as you can stand (with rapid shot upgrade) and WO3 / CO4 and sacrifice speed or armor.

Third, the additional mass and single ordnance, projectile limits really do make it possible to design a dogfighter to your specifics. Before you had to trade down excessively on armor because it weighed far too much in any interceptor fighter. Well, with 30k more mass, this isn't a problem anymore. New players won't have to wait to collect five or seven uber engines to Re-Engineer into their PvP component to fit the mass and energy requirements. Bigger reactors can handle the energy requirements of EO4, but, were too massive to consider fitting into 65k mass fighters. Now, it's entirely possible (with 95k nominal ship mass) to prefer crafted engines and reactors.

Fourth, a consequence of higher mass, while retaining a single projectile is that fighters are more survivable by far. Not having to face 2-gun Tie-Advanced or 3-gun X-Wings at the top of the turn fighter class means these new 'heavies' are not one-hit kills. Not unless you deliberately limit your own survivability by foregoing armor and well crafted (higher hp/armor) components.

Fifth, factor now with a single projectile that type of weapon matters. Ion cannons are not going to chew through nearly 30k mass of extra armor like it wasn't there (which it sometimes wasn't in PvP). Nor will Disruptors cut through 30k mass of extra shields either. Defensive options for these 'heavies' have increased thanks to the mass ceiling AND firepower limitation.

Sixth, older ships will still have trade-off considerations. A-wings will still have the smallest hit-box, Tie-Advanced has a 2-gun limit which effectively doubles firepower over the 'heavies'. Bombers will still carry more ordnance and have the mass for heavier components. X-wings will still have a decent chance of one-shotting a 'heavy' provided their aim is good. Real trade-offs now exist because these new 'heavies' create more opportunity to PvP and fill (for all factions) the interceptor fighter role. That's all, they don't fill the bomber role, or the superiority role, and there are trade-offs factions can make in the interceptor role as well. Tie-Interceptor fires 4 bolts for a slightly wider cone of fire than a normal Tie or presumably the heavy Tie.

All this means is the new 'heavies' form the basis of the PvP fight, by filling the Interceptor role. As a bonus, the increased mass means crafted components are now viable where they absolutely were not before. The reduced firepower (1 projectile) and opportunity for more armor, should make them less glass cannons (once WO3 is ever fixed).

Overall, I will affirm they do improve JTL, expecially for PvP. That the reward ships are over the top, I'll agree. However, with decay they won't be used casually. Even still, the heavies have the base maneuverability to match the Jedi Starfighter, so it will be pilot skill that keeps you from always being in the cross-hairs of the JSF. Since the Jedi Starfighter has no turret it can be killed from the rear just like any other typical fighter.

>>Everyone has the same effective stats on maneuverability, firepower, and mass. Real equipment trade-offs are now possible to suit flying skill
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Trade off? what trade off?

You don't have to sacrafice mass for speed or manuverabilty. You can have both. Nor do you have have to sacrafice firepower for defense, You can have both.

In a 65K mass chassis i can pack (in addition to the standard stuff like reactor, armor, chaff, CD, boooster, etc etc)

L6 engine
L8 Blaster
MK II IR missle
MK III shield.


And i still have 2 to 3K mass to play with. Overlay that into a 95K mass chassis and now i have 33K mass to play with. Oh whatever shall i do.. hmmm.

First things first, ill ditch the L6 engine and put in a nice RE'd 97 speed 76 YPR L8 engine. Swapping this engine, in, i now have 16K mass to play with. Think i might swap my shield while im at it. MK III is about 10K mass, add taht to the 16K, that gives me room for a 26K mass shield, which, coincidently, i have a couple of L8 RE'd reward shields laying around at about that mass .

Alls said and done i now have a
L8 engine
L8 shield
L8 blaster
MK II IR missle

and now im running EO4 on top of that.

Looking at this package, what i have here is the best legit shield you can have, best cannon you can have short of an RE'd L10, most certainly one of the best engines. All fitted into a ship that has the best manuverablity.

So again, wheres the trade off again? I seem to have missed that part, cause i havent traded off a single thing.

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TomoRainer wrote:

By the way, what's everyone think of the ARC? My take is that, all things considered, its relatively low mass (for a three-person ship, anyway) might be balanced pretty well with its speed and turning. An option might be to raise its mass to the 150-200K range and drop its maneuverability in line with the X-Wing.

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Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-10-2005 07:41 PM

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warpish wrote:

the additional mass and single ordnance, projectile limits really do make it possible to design a dogfighter to your specifics. Before you had to trade down excessively on armor because it weighed far too much in any interceptor fighter. Well, with 30k more mass, this isn't a problem anymore. New players won't have to wait to collect five or seven uber engines to Re-Engineer into their PvP component to fit the mass and energy requirements. Bigger reactors can handle the energy requirements of EO4, but, were too massive to consider fitting into 65k mass fighters. Now, it's entirely possible (with 95k nominal ship mass) to prefer crafted engines and reactors.

older ships will still have trade-off considerations.

All this means is the new 'heavies' form the basis of the PvP fight, by filling the Interceptor role.

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Hmm, TBH i cant really see how removing the need to RE and tailor your componenets to your specifice wants/likes/needs due to having loads more mass to play with means it is possible to design a dogfighter to your specifices. It means the opposite - it means you can stick in what you like rather than having to go "Hmm, should i drop a weaker blaster in and stick in a torp tube or stick with the more powerful blaster?"

"Older ships" such as the A-wing you mention are not OLDER they are decades YOUNGER and more advanced, there is no concievable way they would be worse designs than decades old equipment, just as your computer isnt worse than a 20 year old one - its better (unless you shop at PCworld of course)!

And finally, if the new "heavies" form the basis ofthe PvP fight, out of the window goes such things as tactics and skill.

Being a good pilot is not about having the quickest reactions. Its about bringing a gun to a knife-fight and killing everyone quickly, or bringing a knife to a gun-fight and through luck and skill surviving scarred but victorious, in other words, being a good pilot is about picking the right tools for the job, then doing the job and/or adapting to how the job changes.

These new ships advocate the "everyone has exactly the same equipment" best connection/least lag and good reflexes wins combo over the skills, tactics and equipment that make ACE pilots ACES.