Pilot Archive

Thread: I hate them because I care

idolatry
Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:24 pm
#66






KaylBreinhar wrote:
That's most likely the "I don't want to drop Rebel Pilot/all my faction/both" answer as well.

Note in that same thing, nothing was said about the TIE Advanced. Privateers already HAD 2P/1M and 85-87k in the Dunelizard.





I love my little 'lizard... mastered three professions in the beauty. The whole Pilot profession, from my perspective, was designed to encourage you to try out everything. Hell, you get a massive XP bonus for just making Master one time. What other professions do that?



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Elder Shipwright/Master Pilot - Imperial 6th Wing Forums
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...Pilot is the alpha class
Alarien
Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:30 pm
#67

"THis isnt about the A wing, or an other specific ship."


Actually for me, this is entirely about the A-Wing, which is horribly underpowered and in its current form cannot do the duty it was designed by Star Wars canon to do with any feeling of "right." That's my opinion.


If I was Imperial, I would likely feel very very much the same way about the Interceptor and the Advanced, however, since I don't fly them, I can't comment in the same way.


Remember, we're not talking about newbie ships here to make the grind "trivial." Yes, the heavy variants have already made it a lot easier for newbies, who are willing to spend half a million to buy them, but 1) most newbies don't (I certainly had access but thought half a million for a ship that was for the pilot grind only was not worth it) and 2) the original variants are absolutely worthless beyond tier 2 missions, which is just wrong in the case of the Z-95.


We're talking primarily about 4xxx ships, one of which (the Heavy X, to include the CG TIE and Vaksai if you like) requires a master level difficulty mission to even get. There is no ramp up currently between 4xxxx and Master as far as ships go at this time, as the current master ships are pretty much junk (B-Wing? Aggressor? Don't be silly). So where as you gain in ship power from tier 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and are evenly matched against ships in those, you are always just a little behind the ships in Deep Space and Kessel.


Don't take this to mean that I didn't smoke Deep Space, the ISD, everything in Kessel, etc in my regular X-Wing. Yes, they were trivial, but they were also utterly tedious, as my ship was limited severely in its ability to upgrade from "tier 3" or 4 to master. Now, flying a Belbullab in Deep Space with a couple decent level 7 blasters or my Heavy X, with 2 7's and an RE Tricannon, my ship feels like its evenly matched, and I don't spend extra time turning into a kill than would seem reasonable for ship to ship space combat. It feels right, where as flying an A-Wing in Deep Space before for PVE purposes was just a waste. I can't think of a single reason I would ever choose to PVE an A-Wing in this game over even a regular X. If the A-Wing was similar to the inteceptor fighter feel of the Bel or JSF in Deep Space, I would love to be flying it again.


That said, exactly what is being made "trivial?" Tier 4 fighter NPCs? You're a tier above them, they should be trivial. Tier 5s? They already were, but at least a pack of Tier 5 TIE Advanced with a couple Aggressors thrown is still a fight you have to actually be behind the controls for. Its not like you can sleep through it in DS.


I can't see how this hurts PVE balance in the least. If anything, it makes it possible for them to ramp up the difficulty a bit and present us with new challenges and zones, geared towards master level pilots, far more than Deep Space currently does. That's the normal way of MMORPGs anyway, to ramp up the content. I think Kashyyk already presents the first step up, with its harder Tier 5 duty missions and ROTW hero space fight.


This isn't about "look at me, I'm the better pilot in my little, mass managed ship." Any monkey can read someone else's guide and get good tips on mass management. This is about a need to find a good balance. We already all agree that balance is broken in regards to POB ships. I don't think its unlikely, given that huge problem, to admit that maybe the rest of the space game needs some rebalancing also.



Alarien Evenstar
-Rogue Paladin-
Starsider
Alarien
Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:37 pm
#68


"That's most likely the "I don't want to drop Rebel Pilot/all my faction/both" answer as well."


I have no idea what you are implying here. Any rebalancing of any ship would require a look at every ship, regardless of faction. I have a pretty good idea, from watching what people play, that the TIEs are not as well balanced against each other for role in the same way that I feel that the Rebel ships are not. You people really need to not look for ulterior motives based on faction or skill where there are none.


And no, I have no intention of dropping Rebel on my main character. He'll get his 3 badges (I'm lazy about dropping again to start Crimson Phoenix) and my second character slot will get all 6 other squadrons, so I have all mastered on one server. So?




Alarien Evenstar
-Rogue Paladin-
Starsider
quadpers0n
Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:29 pm
#69


i think you guys are really both right. (and both wrong)


ducimus you are wrong about the older ships. they sucked. let's just be blunt, they weren't fun ships for tier 5 PVE content. they were managable yes, even great ships in the hands of some pilots, but really what they were was inefficient vs what we have for master content. should the master content be designed differently? yeah probably. going to happen? nope. should we worry about what an increase in mass for those ships might do to PVE content? nahh i don't think so. it's a joke anyway and really all you'll end up seeing is more people flying in ships they think look nice and can perform adequately in both PVE and PVP. 40-65k mass was just too small for tier 5 mobs.


that being said, it's wrong to say the new ships shouldn't be nerfed. the hitboxes are too small. current master level PVE content can make quick work of bigger fighters while missing something like the JSF entirely. what exactly is the dynamic that's being encouraged with that? do we really want a ship capable of soloing all PVE content without taking a scratch? no because the only alternative to that is to improve PVE accuracy. this leaves any other larger hitbox ship in the lurch and is part of the reason people are flocking to those ships now.


furthermore 15 minute PVP is absurd. players whined and whined and whined and we told them they'd regret it. it turns out the skilled pilots who clamored against this kind of things are the ones regretting it while the unskilled die and mediocre pilots in heavier fighters die just as fast.


all you whiners out there, we told you so. if you actually read previous posts i'd put a link in here and prove that people saw this coming.


so people clamor for more mechanic changes. heavy ship damage reduction. they mistakenly think there needs to be more reduction, forgetting the fact that it's slowly making the endgame a mockery for both PVE and PVP. that really has to stop. i don't think it ever will though, so what can you do? they won't nerf the grievious/JSF (not mentioning the IGI because we all know that's not right) because it's going to be real hard to do it in a way that doesn't sound like "oops."


they can encourage other players to use different ships though and i think a mass increase on some of them would go a long ways towards that,even if theJSFs get nerfed.barring a hitbox size reduction though we are just going to have to support good mechanic changes (POB issues, slight mitigation for heavy ships) and keep chiding/helping people who come on blathering about things being too hard. you can't stop the slide when you have developers who listen to player input. for ever thread requesting it here there's probably 10 people emailing TH complaining. if we don't have the capacity to voice "no more" then the only thing we can do is try to manage the slide.





-meeuki


lumpini
Ducimus
Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:56 pm
#70

>>You are wrong about the older ships. they sucked. let's just be blunt, they weren't fun ships for tier 5 PVE content.

I don't think they sucked. Honestly i think people were/are just put off by low mass, and think its an insurmountable obstruction. I kinda did too when i first started, but over time i learned little things here or there. Nowdays i can build a 65K tie Advanced that can outkill a good number pilots in JSF's in PvE. Pre ROTW, i PvPed in a 50K mass chassis and had a 5 to 1 kill ratio. The RE game and tinkering with ships is half the fun and challenge of JTL. Why lessen this challenge?

>>really what they were was inefficient vs what we have for master content.
Whats that? PvP? helping out newbies? FP farming? Im being cynical here, what master level content?



Major Rapax Victis - Commando
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...has mastered the Pilot profession
quadpers0n
Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:26 pm
#71


deep space is master level content, literally.


and yeah, we all know you don't think the old ships suck, all the people who invested time in them were able to make them managable. but the fact remains that it was just a tad boring in those ships while doing PVE. i know how it was, i had a near perfect interceptor, i was considering making a tie ln work for me. but that's not really the point, they were not, even under the best conditions with the best RE'd equipment, the ships they should be.


you can't say that you got a perfect RE'd interceptor together and then went and annihilated deep space with it. it wasn't a PVE ship no matter which way you twisted it. is that PVE's fault? yeah. but like i said previously that won't ever change. the same goes for an a-wing. could you make it work? yup. did you have to work hard at it to achieve a ship that did not perform as it should vs high level (master content) fighters? yes.


now, those ships were great for other "master level conent" IE helping people with missions. why? because they felt right against tier 3 ships. but it's not fair to protest an increase in their strength based on that. what about the people who don't want deep space to suck in a traditional fighter?


the current 90k mass fighters are acceptable against gunboats and formidable against fighters of higher levels, and that's using decent crafted equipment. players like flying light ships. players like blowing stuff up. in the end this game has to be fun for them and alot of the ships we love need to be fun for them too. i personally hated the fact that i couldn't bring my inteceptor to deep space. i mean, i could. but why would you? the challenge? it's not a challenge, it's a timesink.


even if the JSF had never been invented i'd still be saying unscrewing the old ships would be a good idea.





-meeuki


lumpini
JediNg
Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:40 pm
#72

I do think the responsiveness of the 'normal' ships needs to be upped a bit. a wing and b wing in particular



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Kssob
Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:48 pm
#73


I said:






I know that normally Devs never want to take away something the players expect because of the months of whining, but for this case there really isn't as huge of a community in space to hear from.





Two posts later:



R9D14 wrote:
Under NO circumstances should they lower the mass of any ships. It would really screw pilots over who have worked SO hard finding just the right parts to fit in their ships.


I'd use my A-wing still but my JSF with more mass and another gun, better turning, My A-wing couldn't compete. I was outgunned all the time, the only thing I had going for me was my 1600 speed with booster.


Performance needs changing. preferably only to the pre-rotw ships. to nerf the new ships would be like taking them back. Shipwrights need more power. They already rake in money but for parts that are not as good as the reward parts.



It has already begun.



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Alarien
Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:55 am
#74

Sorry if you don't like it but the balance issue isn't with the new ships. Its the old horrendous first run ships. I don't care what "badge of honor" you wear for balancing their worth, they pretty much cannot do the job they are canon intended to do or fit the role they should fit. The original design ships have about half the power capability of the same ships as they stand in the previous X-Wing/TIE games.


The A-Wing is light, but its not a TIE fighter. It should be faster, more maneuverable than an X-Wing but carry a lighter load out and be significantly less well armored and shielded. That is not what we currently have. I know some of you, like Leaph, love your A-Wing, but right now your A-Wing is what a basic TIE Fighter should be. It carries an inferior engine due to weight, making it slower and possibly even LESS maneuverable than an X-Wing (if the X-Wing pilot decides to go with the Tier 10 engine... and I do mean even a regular X can do this, with some other sacrifices). That's just absurd. It should be a true interceptor. Guess what guys? We have 2 current Interceptors in game: The Actis and the Belbullab. No other Rebel or Imp ships fit that role very well. You have light fighters (TIE/Int, A-Wing), crappy light fighters (TIE Fighter, Z-95), Heavy Fighters (Vaksai, Heavy X-Wing, and super heavy worthless pointless fighters (B-Wing, TIE Bomber, etc).


Face it, the Actis is everything that the A-wing is supposed to be. Nerfing it to be less powerful would simply bring it into line with the current crop of "not fitting their intended job" fighters that are in JTL and going almost entirely unused.


At this point, its all a matter of your opinion. You may think it was ok the way it was, but some don't and won't. Buffing the A-Wing and TIE Int to bring them into line as viable Interceptors is the first step, in my opinion.



Alarien Evenstar
-Rogue Paladin-
Starsider
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