Pilot Archive
Thread: Ship Cruising Bug Drops to 0 speed and then back to full power
Message Edited by Storm2 on 01-11-2005 07:34 PM
Storm2 wrote:Not a bug...it's lag. If you look in your ping window, you'll see a bandwidth reading, I noticed when it goes up, it tends to do it, that's my observations though.Joshua StormlighterChilastra Server
Mine never fluctuates, at least no more than any other point at which I'm playing. Never more than within a 10ms range, just like any other time...nothing substantial that stands out at all.
I rest my case and stand by my convictions. The problem is on SOE's end somewhere.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 01-11-2005 10:14 PM
I understand it's hard to imagine, but just because these issues aren't experienced by every single person in the game every single time doesn't mean it's any less SOE's problem. There have been tons of bugs where this has been the case in this game, and many have been fixed. If you truly are insistent that it has to be on the user end, I challenge you to go to the JTL Discussion forum, find the thread entitled "Enemies Warping, still in from Beta!", read through the entire thread, and find the answer, find where I'm wrong on this. Trust me, I'll be *more* than happy to be proven wrong and administer the magic fix on my end that will miraculously make these things go away. I still stand by my statement though....the problem is on SOE's end, one way or another.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 01-12-2005 09:43 AM
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
Oh, and for the record since you mentioned that too, my pertinent system specs are:
Athlon XP 2500+
1 gig Corsair TwinX PC3200 memory
Asus A7N8X Deluxe NForce2 motherboard
Western Digital 10k RPM "Raptor" 36.7 gig SATA drive
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128
Ok, did you update the ATI drivers? I am still using the bugged ones because my laptop manufacturer doesn't have newer ATI drivers (and ATI won't provide them either) but other then the occasional crash, everything works perfectly. Maybe the new ATI drivers have other problems that is causing client lag???
My stats are
Intel 3.4 Pentium IV (not mobile, the real thing) with hyperthreading
1 GB RAM
60GB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256 Mobile Edition with the bugged drivers.
I play on the west coast with a DSL conection.
Things I notice from your stats is mainly you are using AMD and I am using Intel. You said that you know people that are using Intel as well with the same problem? Also, my CPU is faster, but yours is much higher then the minimum requirements so if it is a performance issue, then SOE needs to either state that the requirements are higher or fix it so it will work on all computers that meet the minumum requirements.
What OS are you using as this could be a big key too. I use Windows XP Pro.
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
LOL...you aren't giving me near enough credit I think based on what I've posted to this point. Every driver I have stays updated. From ATI to NForce to sound to Silicon Image and so on. If anything I'm an*l-retentive about driver and OS updates. Again, go even just peruse through the aforementioned thread. There are people with both AMD and Intel processors, all kinds of motherboard/processor/video card combos (yes both ATI and Nvidia), people with every Windows OS type (that will run the game of course) with these problems. I'm not trying to be combative or stubborn, I'm just telling you...everything you've brought up before and are still bringing up has been thought of and looked over comparatively between folks. There is no commonality involved. If *anyone* has been thorough and obsessive about looking at every minute possibility with their own system it's me. I've run ping tests before last night too, I just don't think you need a full hour to know whether or not you're having obvious/regular problems. Not saying 2 minutes does the trick, but I know how often these problems crop up during a game session, and I don't need to wait and hour to see if there's some correlation between my ISP and the issue at hand. And again....for me, the problems *only* appeared after JTL launch, never once in JTL beta. Whatever the issue is, if it's with me, by way of a driver issue or the like if that be the case, it's still something that requires research, problem determination and either adjustment on SOE's end or communication of where the problem lies so we can make the necessary fixes. Just like with the crash to desktop issues and other such bugs which affect some people and not others. Just because 'everyone' doesn't experience a bug in no way lessens the fact that the bug exists.
You are being foolish if you always keep the latest drivers. Like I said, I don't use the latest drivers and you do. It is possible that your latest driver is part of the problem. In this thread, system configurations have not been discussed in great length, just that the problem exists for some people. If you know of a thread that deals more with the technical aspect of this problem, then postthe thread, because this has not been discussed in this thread.This problem DID occur pre-launch and it actually went away after launch for me. I am not debating the fact that the problem exists, but rather trying to get at the solution. If a person tells there mayor that there is a pothole in the road but doesn't give the location, the mayor can come back and say they couldn't find a pothole, but you will jump up and down saying it is there, but without investigation, you will get nowhere. The fact is, the original post said that SOE needs to fix this bug, and I just said that it is possible that it isn't a bug at all, and something else is causing the problem. Nothing more. You then start saying that all types of systems are affected and only some people have it and others don't. Simple fact, two computers with the same configuration and software will behave the same. There is some comonality that SOE will have to figure out to fix your problem. That is why I said it could be something as simple as spyware (and just because you scan for spyware does not mean that you don't have it. it means the scanner you use couldn't find any, but there are always some that it misses).
The reason I say over an hour is it gives a broader perspective. If you know it happens every 5 min, then 10 min ping might be enough. I don't know the frequency of this problem because I don't have it. When I had a crappy internet connection, I would run ping plotter 24 hours a day and at any given instant I can see how the connection has been and know if I can play a JTL with minimal lag. I do know that this problem occurs a lot when you have packet loss, so it isa lag issue. Either the server is lagging (but we know that is not the case since it does not lag for everyone), a connection lag, but you claim that the connection is running well, and finally a client lag (spyware/virus, driver issue, or a SWG client issue). So we pretty much know its client lag, but the question is why is it occuring. SOE can't reproduce the problem without the information which you are just starting to release. For example, it could be that everyone using a realtek network card is having this problem.
Also I must add, that people that experience this problem have also said that NPCs are bouncing, and other problems are occuring. It may not be exactly the same problem as you face and maybe for them it is something like a bad internet connection.
Please understand that I am just trying to help, and I believe that you know what you are talking about, every aspect needs to be looked at. I used to do phone support and believe me, people that know what they are talking about, always miss something. Not trying to say anything bad about you, but I will ask the questions as they come to me and maybe a solution will come out of it.
Secondly, I understand the problem existed pre-launch. It still exists. And it will continue to exist until they address it. Thirdly, 'information I'm just starting to release' is an assumptive fallacy, unless you mean as it relates soley to you, and even then that's not totally true. The information is all there in several threads, most particularly the one I keep referencing. Mine and everyone else's. The core problem here, i.e. the rubberband issue, is something a majority of players *are* experiencing. You asked about someone from Eclipse experiencing it, someone responded between our posts from your very server who does and furthermore, by his account everyone he knows experiences it as well. This is much more broad-based than you're acknowledging, and while I understand that (a.) you claim never to experience it and (b.) it may well be something still on the user side, everything that the user can determine to try and narrow it down has been ruled out by process of elimination. All the necessary information has been submitted in mutliple bug reports by me at least. It's in their hands to resolve at this point. Basically, this is not much different than the aforementioned crash to desktop bugs which also are hit-or-miss in nature.Finally, I understand that two computers configured exactly the same will behave the same. I understand you're not denying the problem exists but trying to help with a solution. That's the whole point here....there are all kinds of different combinations out there, and people with all sorts of those combinations are all experiencing these issues. And even in spite of what you're stating being true, there are anomalies involved which even defy that logic, which I've pointed out. When you've ruled out every possible commonality crossover between them on your end based on all the evidence at hand, even if it's still something end-user related, it becomes something that only the people behind the software in question can give any credible insight into or determine where the problem lies. That's where we're at at this point on this issue. I know you're trying to help, and on the surface I appreciate the attempt, but quite frankly you don't understand the problem as I do and you haven't done the research on it that I have. If I or the droves of others who have worked through this are wrong and have just missed something obvious, there's nothing I can tell you nor no pertinent information I could provide that isn't already out there that you can read for yourself in the Enemies Warping thread alone. It still boils down to it being in SOE's side of the ballcourt to track down the culprit behind the problem. They have the information easily and readily available already, it's out there, it's not something being held back and they're not in a situation such that they'd be flying blind...but only they at this point have the ability to determine what it is as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue and debate, it's been a fun way to pass the time away at work on a slow day.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 01-12-2005 06:17 PM
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
First of all, if I'm 'being foolish' by keeping my drivers current, then not only are you and I at major disagreement, but you and SOE are as well.
It is a very accepted practice not update your drivers until a stable set has been determined. On many gamer sites out there, they say that if you are not having any problems, don't touch your drivers. Here is the best example that comes to mind. Windows XP SP2. When it came out, it was the latest patch to the Windows XP OS, and yet people waited a long time, some still don't have it, to get the patch because of all the baggage that came with it. Now that it is out there and all the issues are known, people are more willing to update. It comes down to, if it isn't broken don't fix it.To update your driver for the sake of updating it, is foolish.
I am working on this thread and no other was linked to. I can't read minds and know that you are talking about a specific threat that is not in this one. You just say that we have already filtered the problem set and know what the issue isn't. It is good that you are submitting this as bugs and I truely hope that it gets fixed, but I truely believe that SOE won't be able to fix this because it is a conceptual problem with MMO twitch game which will have these problems. From what I have heard, other FPS MMO have had the same type of problems. The technology today just can't handle it, and we are seeing it now more then ever.
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
Finally, I understand that two computers configured exactly the same will behave the same. I understand you're not denying the problem exists but trying to help with a solution. That's the whole point here....there are all kinds of different combinations out there, and people with all sorts of those combinations are all experiencing these issues. And even in spite of what you're stating being true, there are anomalies involved which even defy that logic, which I've pointed out. When you've ruled out every possible commonality crossover between them on your end based on all the evidence at hand, even if it's still something end-user related, it becomes something that only the people behind the software in question can give any credible insight into or determine where the problem lies. That's where we're at at this point on this issue. I know you're trying to help, and on the surface I appreciate the attempt, but quite frankly you don't understand the problem as I do and you haven't done the research on it that I have. If I or the droves of others who have worked through this are wrong and have just missed something obvious, there's nothing I can tell you nor no pertinent information I could provide that isn't already out there that you can read for yourself in the Enemies Warping thread alone. It still boils down to it being in SOE's side of the ballcourt to track down the culprit behind the problem. They have the information easily and readily available already, it's out there, it's not something being held back and they're not in a situation such that they'd be flying blind...but only they at this point have the ability to determine what it is as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue and debate, it's been a fun way to pass the time away at work on a slow day.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 01-12-2005 06:17 PM
I know that someone from Eclipse stated that he had this problem. He was responding to my question and my next post said it can't be a server issue since some have the problem and some don't on the same server.
I too enjoyed this dialogue, but don't make assumptions on whether or not I understand the problem as you don't know if I do. I experienced the problem back in beta and I did troubleshoot it. It occured everytime that I had packet loss on my connection, that is why I say it is lag related, which it definately is. Also, I have narrowed it down to a small problem set that the devs can look into if they want. Again, I am only working out of what you all are saying on this thread, because this is the only one that I have read on the issue (and I read the forums very often). Like you said, it is in SOE hands now, but the original post I made in this thread is not to complain if SOE says that it isn't anything they can do because it is latency or something like that.
Additionally, you keep igoring the fact that I and countless others *have* taken the time to try and identify any and all problems on our end. There aren't any to be found. Again, if you think you can prove otherwise that there's some red herring out there, by all means, 'take the time' that I personally can stand here before you and say with honesty and conviction that I have to read through every single post of the aforementioned thread as well as every other one you can find on the issue and find the commonality between them that I and so many others seem to just be stubbornly blind to. Furthermore, your assumption that 'because the game is twitch' is the culprit for the problem totally flies in the face of your flawed logic that just because you don't experience the problems, it can't possibly be a bug. If it were simply because 'the game is twitch', then, by george, wouldn't "EVERYONE" be experiencing these problems?
Ultimately though, what's really funny about all this debate is it's all pointless and moot to begin with. Why? Look at all the crash to desktop bugs that are going on. I'm not experiencing a single one of them. Must be a problem on the user end right? It's very possible, to be sure, but should the end user(s) be the one(s) responsbile ultimately for tracking down the reasons they're occurring? You know as well as I do aty, the lion's share of the people playing this game aren't like you and I, they're not people well versed in troubleshooting or problem solving in a technical vein. Ultimately it's SOE's game, and it's their responsibility to figure out where the conflicting problems/issues lie and communicate with us how to resolve them, if indeed the problem lies on our end. And before you get the wrong idea, I am *not* one of these guys who constantly spews flames towards the devs about this game and the state it's in either. If anything, in many cases I defend them, because I understand what a mammoth undertaking it is to plug all the holes in a game of this magnitude. I went cross-country to Fan Fest and spoke with a couple of them face to face. I have a high amount of respect for them especially in light of what they have to put up with on the boards many times. But I guarantee you without hesitation that if you posed the question of whose responsibility it was to track down issues like this and find out what the problem is, they would agree with what I said above. Mind you, they may not do it to my or many others' satisfaction in terms of how quickly they take care of it, but they would agree it's their job to figure out what's causing the problems and either try and fix them or communicate to us where the problem on our end lies so we can fix it ourselves.
In either case aty, the responsibility is still SOE's to find and determine the solution.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 01-12-2005 02:07 PM
Athlon XP 2500+
1 gig Corsair TwinX PC3200 memory
Asus A7N8X Deluxe NForce2 motherboard
Western Digital 10k RPM "Raptor" 36.7 gig SATA drive
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128