Pilot Archive

Message Edited by wasj2004 on 04-03-2005 05:53 PM

The reason I know it's more than one shot is because when I get behind a ship and start firing, I watch its shields % go down, then its armor, then its chassis. 3-6 hits later--I'm using a level 6 gun, that's the best I can fit in my Interceptor--the ship explodes.

I also know it's more than one shot because my flimsily-protected Interceptor never dies in one shot. I've been hit a single time probably 20-25 times now and never died without needing at least another hit (which most of the time never happens, or not until I've completely restored my shields). A lucky hit from a level 10 gun might be able to one-shot me, but in that case, I'm up against a heavy fighter who's trading extreme firepower for the ability to maneuver with me.

One-shot kills do exist, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

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TomoRainer wrote:
The reason I know it's more than one shot is because when I get behind a ship and start firing, I watch its shields % go down, then its armor, then its chassis. 3-6 hits later--I'm using a level 6 gun, that's the best I can fit in my Interceptor--the ship explodes.

I also know it's more than one shot because my flimsily-protected Interceptor never dies in one shot. I've been hit a single time probably 20-25 times now and never died without needing at least another hit (which most of the time never happens, or not until I've completely restored my shields). A lucky hit from a level 10 gun might be able to one-shot me, but in that case, I'm up against a heavy fighter who's trading extreme firepower for the ability to maneuver with me.

One-shot kills do exist, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

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Kudos for using the Tie Interceptor. I'm certain if more players used ships tier 3 and below it would be a very different game up there. Problem is you don't get rewarded for taking a step down in abilites. What do you think would entice players to go up in a ship in tier 3 or lower ships? (Considering they cannot hold their own vs most tier 5 ships) I'd love to take a Tie/In out but if I didn't get jumped by a player any tier 5 awing could wipe the floor with me, or one blast from a turret on a gunboat would open me up pretty good too.

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TomoRainer wrote:
You'd be surprised what a well-loaded Interceptor can do. Mine's optimized for PVP and uses about 7.5K extra mass on a missile launcher and a level 4 reactor to handle EO4, but I'm still able to take tier 5 A-Wings or gunboats or solo Vettes in Deep Space without using Bomber Strike. You just have to get good at strafing runs, evading fire, keeping an eye on your shields, and being patient. Once you get that down, battling capital ships in an Interceptor becomes challenging, but more than possible.

I use an Interceptor in PVP for three reasons: first, I think it's slightly smaller than the Advanced, which is always a plus; second, I like to think it makes my opponents underestimate me, maybe placing others as a higher priority than the rook in the Int; and third, working with such limited mass helps me be a better pilot. It's very hard to get complacent in that ship.

In order to get people to fly lower-tier ships, you just have to give them clear roles and the ability to compete. They don't have to be uber, they just need to be able to do something you can't pull off in another ship. For instance, a Longprobe isn't necessarily a bad ship to fly; its two missile slots can make it effective against Advanceds and Interceptors, and if your wingmen do a good job engaging the initial fighter screen it's got a good shot to stay alive and do some damage. I would love it if they'd give the standard Y-Wing two missile slots, as it'd let you have a turreteer to take care of light fighters harrassing you while still packing plenty of light fighter-killing missiles. The Dunelizard is probably the privateers' best PVP ship, but if they made the Kihraxz smaller instead of its ludicrously oversized profile, that'd probably see more use.

That's all it would take. We don't need 50% of the ships up there to be Y-Wings or Interceptors, but if these ships have a use in PVP--any use at all--they will get used. For 1 vs 1 stuff, dogfighting light fighters really can't be beat, but once you get large-scale battles with extensive and developed tactics, you start to see a lot of fighters you'd never expect to see in PVP.

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In order to get people to fly lower-tier ships, you just have to give them clear roles and the ability to compete.

I've never thought of PvP in this game as just dogfighting. I'm annoyed that it is atm and would rather the devs not give each fighter a way to compete. I don't want to see someone fly a y-wing and be able to take out an interceptor with missles. I want them to keep bombers dedicated to bombing and have them getten eaten alive by light fighters. I want cap ships to go down in flames when bombers make it in.

Taking a Y-wing into a fight with lighter fighters should be pointless. Taking a Y-wing on a search and destroy mission trying to take out a cruiser should be right up it's ally. Taking fighters after a cruiser should be pointless but going after other fighters and bombers should be a walk in the park.

Pilots in bombers need a purpose. The space station/ISD is supposed to be their primary target but there is little incentive to go after them. That needs to change. Fighter pilots should be hell bent on protecting their cap ships and seeking out incoming bombers/fighters. A few changes to deep space and a bit more organization and space would have a purpose.

If you're overt in space you need a target nearest enemy player hotkey.

This detects any and all hostile enemy players within something like 3km.

That's 3km worth of time that you have to decide to fight or flight and generally prepare to outmaneuver your opponent on the head on run.

I suggest rolling.

Mark my words. In several months hence there will be a rebalance in JTL.

JTL which was meant to mimic the old sim series or Xwing Vs Tie fighter in gameplay (IE, TWITCH gameplay) will be reduced to being a mimic of the ground game. (IE matrix style fights that last forver)
Nothing quite like watching two melee's go at it on the ground for 10 or 20 mins with no sign of a victor. Such is the future of space PvP because of rookie ignorance.


Lets hope sony keeps to the design.

Space = twitch based on the skill of the human player involved (much like a FPS)
Ground = skill based, based on the skill of the human players character, (much liek your standard D&D inspired turn based RPG's)


But sadley, i don't see it happening. Equipment already plays a huge role in PvP right now, after the voices of ignorance ruin JTL, the equipment gap will be even larger.

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Insidius wrote:
If you're overt in space you need a target nearest enemy player hotkey.

This detects any and all hostile enemy players within something like 3km.

That's 3km worth of time that you have to decide to fight or flight and generally prepare to outmaneuver your opponent on the head on run.

I suggest rolling.

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Yeah most people don't know about the cycle player targets key. "z" by default.

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Tumbler2002 wrote:
U are correct. There needs to be some tweaking with PvP.

The main problem is that defensive systems (Shields and armor) don't matter much at all. Your 2500 shields will hold back 1 shot. Your armor might hold back another, that third shot however will likely disable or destroy your ship. That is if you are fighting an Awing. If you go against a tie advanced, oppressor, or any ship with more than one gun u can expect to die in 1-2 shots. An Xwing has 3 slots and enough mass to mount some serious firepower so he probably got u in 1 shot if all his shots hit.

Most ships can fire about 3x per second as well so all those shields and such aren't helping u very much in pvp.

The major hurdle is how do we fix this?

Do we make shields and armor more powerful?
Do we make weapons less powerful?
Do we fix Weapon Overload 3?

Image some random engagements, how long should it take for an xwing to take out an M22 Gunship?
How long should it take an Awing?
How long should it take an Oppressor?

Three very different ships atm all have the same answer. 1 Second.

Personally I think larger ships like bombers (M22, Oppressor, B Wing) all need 2 things. Boosted performance to Shields and Armor. 6x-8x
AND
Pitch/Yaw/Roll capped so they still move like bombers when engine overload programs are running.

My .02

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Keep in mind the Oppressor is a multi-role ship, not just a bomber. The TIE Bomber would be the imperial bomber.

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JediNg wrote:

Canon is fun. This is space not ground. I don't want to be fighting like on the ground where people take 3957349587934 hits from a rifle to die. No sir.

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Where do you see anyone propsing changes even remotely close to this?

Giving bombers boosted defenses (6x-8x) and less manueverability (according to the number above) would drag combat out for at most another 3 seconds. (9 shots) And that would be against an a-wing with one blaster. Against heavier ships with multiple guns you can cut that in half, another 1.5 seconds. That little extra time might be all that is needed for players to shunt cap to shield turn hard and hope they can at least put up a fight.

Message Edited by Lotridus on 04-04-2005 11:06 AM

Keep in mind the Oppressor is a multi-role ship, not just a bomber. The TIE Bomber would be the imperial bomber.

I am, but if the oppressor didn't get the benefits of engine overload on it's yaw/pitch/roll it would be a lot less effective as an all purpose fighter. But seeing as it is more manueverable than the other master ships mabye it would need a smaller boost to armor and shields. (4x?) The B-wing on the other hand would need the largest benefit to shields and armor as it's extremely vulnerable to attack from almost any ship.

Again these changes shouldn't be made unless they also penalize the manuevering bonus of bombers. Assuming that bombers start acting like bombers (turning very slow and being very vulnerable to light fighters) they will need boosted defenses to account for that.

To give you an example of a bomber acting like a fighter my tie oppressor runs RO4, CO4, EO4, and WO3. With those on my ship has 2400 cap to shunt to shields at a moments notice, top speed of 1208, boost 1438, turns fast enough to fight an a-wing with no trouble, has 2 reversed lvl 8&9 guns that one shot almost all ships. Shields of 2550/2550, armor of 1200 on both sides. Plus 3 missle launchers.

My feeling is that with all that junk on my ship it's unfair that I can manuever with an a-wing. The best a-wing pilot I've been up against was a turn fight that ended up with us both looking like we were sliding through space pointed directly at each other firing. The only thing I had to do was keep my sites on him and shoot. Same for him, he got a few good shots off first, it took 3 to disable me. Congrats to him. Problem was once he was in close it should have been easy for him and hard for me. I think light fighters main advantage is being able to out manuever big ships. And right now it feels like they can't. All the trouble they've gone to squeezing all their equip into those small fighters and my 172k monster can do everything they can do.

That is what I want to see changed. Bombers and large ships need to have manuever penalties that keep them from performing like light fighters.

Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-04-2005 09:03 AM

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Lotridus wrote:

Here is an idea.

If a player fires upon another pilot in PvP and hits, Cut the damage in half or cut it to 1/3. This would only apply in PvP combat and PvE would be normal. That way, it would at least take 8 -10 shots to kill someone... Instead of 1

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Well that is another solution...that most people don't want yet. At least fixing wpn overload 3 should come before that.

Giving boosts to defenses in PvE areas would definitely makes this too easy for bomber pilots. If there was a way to only apply that change to PvP areas that might help but in places like deep space they'd be in little danger of dieing to the npc's...

Adjusting pvp damage definitely solves many problems, but for combat against awings and small fast ships getting 1 or 2 hits can be extremely difficult and if we lowered damage and upped that to 3-5 hits pvp combat would feel a little ridiculous.

This problem is starting to feel like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Unless they can adjust shields/armor for only the pvp side and keep those values the same for pve it's going to hurt one side (pve) and help another (pvp). Making heavier equipment that performs better, like a 60k shield that gave 10000/10000, would give bombers some protection but then in pve they would be on easy street.

Hmm anyone know if it's possible to boost armor and shields only for the pvp side?

Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-04-2005 09:29 AM