Pilot Archive
Thread: Pilot=Force Sensitive xp = Jedi
First we see a decrease of people in the ground game, they all start getting their ships and grinding up pilot to get to master. We'll have a influx of people asking for help to do vette missions because there will be no comradery between the FS grinders. All the grinders who have already hit master will not be willing to help out other grinders because those masters are too busy grinding. People without JTL will start voicing the legitimate concern that they are being penalized for not paying for a 30 dollar expansion because they are stuck grinding on the ground. Then the Jedi will start saying they should be able to grind Jedi XP in space because you can get FS XP from space. Then everyone else will say, "Well if you grind Jedi XP in space you have to face all the penalties you face on the ground." Then the Jedi will start complaining about this and how space should be an escape. All the while we've got tons of people in space grinding away not helping anyone and ruining my area to get away from all this. We then have 100x more idiots posting on the pilot forums then need to and discussions like this will start turning into the rubbish I see every day on the Jedi and Lowca galaxy forums.
*takes a deep breath and lets it out*
There yah have it, the slippery slope in a rather large nutshell. Oh, I forgot to mention all the development time put into this which will then detract from the development time for other issues that would rather be put into the game like a more legitimate use for pilot prestige. Too bad they didn't see viduss's(sp?) post on using pilot prestige to buy reward parts.
Starstrider6 wrote:
FrankLee wrote:
This was debated in the 'what do to with Pilot Prestige' thread stickied up top.
The majority of 'no conversion' proponents are little more than anti-jedi pilots.
Do you think perhaps those "anti-Jedi pilots" might be that way for a reason? Are you saying that people have no cause for alarm when others like yourself advocate that the one aspect of SWG that can't be farmed for XP to convert be changed to allow it?
No, I'm saying that the people arguing against Prestige conversion are generally not being up front about their real motivations. 'Farming' is subjective. I 'farm' for better guns habitually. Several posters 'farm' for faction.
FS exp (which is not Jedi Exp), is a measurement of how well/much one plays the game. FS XP is a measurement of how much someone plays the game, and how much they are willing to spend in time/credits tocollect and convert into FS points. "Quality" isn't a factor here.
So is Prestige. There is no more implicit 'quality' in the earning of Prestige than in Force-Sensitive crafting exp. Quality of play, in terms of efficiency of play, is represented in the addition of the dimension of time when considering points. Points alone are scalar. Points over time are vector. If I earn 10 points in an hour, and you earn 100, you're ten times as 'good' as I am.
Having ANY portion of the game that cannot be measured or converted in this fashion is an oversight. It wasn't an oversight, it was deliberate. Honestly, I don't ever want to see that changed, not because I "hate" Jedi (I'm working on one myself) but because the space game is the only portion of the game that you don't see threads about how to farm XP on your way to Padawan. If Pilotxp can be converted to FS, space will be populated by hundreds of people doing nothing but farming XPfor the fast-track to Jedi Padawan. Seriously,I think it would be a huge mistake to allow that.
1) Space will not be destroyed by people playing it.
2) Players are already 'farming' exp for the tier-4 requirements. Players are already, admittedly, farming space for gear and for money. There are already 'how to do the corvette' threads, there are already 'where's the best place to grind pilot exp' threads.
The space game needs content, not farmers. SWGdoesn't need more Jedi, since people are already upset about the abusesgoing on in every galaxy right now because of the flood of Jedi, that have absolutely *no* fear of death.
This is anti-Jedi sentiment. You yourself are admittedly grinding to Jedi. If Jedi is a problem for you, stop now. If it isn't, why should this chunk of the game not have any convertible recognition for play? Alleged abuses by Jedi are not directly connected to FS experience, they're guilt by association. Jedi fear of death is best discussed by Jedi, and not really relevant to this thread.
Thereis no need to get "buffed" to fly in space andfight to collect xp.
In a month, there won't be any reason to get buffed to fight on the ground. Even if buffs weren't going to be changed, it's hardly a reason to disallow conversion. Or are you trying to make the case that space-conversion would penalize doctors/entertainers? I can earn FS exp unbuffed by crafting; precedent exists.
There is no meaningful decay for using a ship to collect xp. As long as you don't get killed, youdon't lose anything.
There is no meaningful decay for using grenades; consumables can't really decay. There is no meaningful decay for a TKM with an ADK VK, whether he dies or not.
That said, Doctors, Entertainers, Weaponsmiths, and Armorsmiths suddenly lose their customer base, because no one is going to spend 5 million credits or more on grenades when they can spendmuch less. Shipwrights would see a mild increase in sales, but only for a short time.
Doctors, entertainers, and armorsmiths do not sell grenades. Weaponsmiths will likely suffer the same market impact when/if they fix the grenade issue. I do not consider WS economy to be a major problem with the loss of grenade sales. SW's will still need to supply better, newer parts, doctors and entertainers will still be needed to heal wounds and battle fatigue.
Pilot Prestige is post-master content, and presently is worth Deep Space entry only. I can enter deep space once a day for the next year and a half, and not use up my Prestige. That's why pilots are asking the Devs to spend their time adding content that uses the prestige points, to give pilots and smugglers things to do in space, and not spend that time allowing spacexp to be converted to FS xp, then working out how to make that "fair".
Let's be honest about this. We're talking about someone examining a single set of numbers. We're talking about (in an exhaustive effort) someone flying with different configurations and pilot styles, to discern what an end-rate of conversion would be. We're not talking about art or music involvement, combat involvement, network stability issues, or graphics retouching. We're talking about an alarmingly small change, in terms of code, to be generating such arguments of 'better spent elsewhere'. Further, the Developers have already decided what 'space' improvements will be made via the RotW expansion. They have made zero comment otherwise about whether they're actually going to do any Prestige benefits. The argument that they can be doing better things is only viable in an environment where they can actually be doing better things; they've given no indication that they can or will.
'Use of developer time' is a non-issue. Think about it, we're talking about adding virtually no code to the game. While I would like to believe that it's as simple as a "yes/no" argument, it's not. There would also be issues of a "fair" conversion rate, overcoming the differences between Imperial/Alliance/Freelance systems, etc. They add that exp type to the database, and set the converstion rate. All applicable systems are already in game. I think you're spittin' in the ocean and hoping for high tide there. Having written a few lines of code in my life I know it's *never* that easy.
I write code where I work on a daily basis. It's not a stretch to say that the code to convert one type of experience to another is already in place, because it's obvious. I'm troubled by a possible inequity in prestige accumulation by privateer/imperial/rebel pilots, but this is a balance issue and could be handled in a number of ways. To my knowledge, a ship worth 1k prestige to me is worth 1k prestige to my rebel counterpart. I don't see the imbalance. Further, I don't see how conversion will be _more_ time-consuming than new chassis, new zones, new specials, new parts, or any of the other suggestions I've heard put forth as prestige-drains.
'Keep space pristine'... you mean keep space underpopulated? No. When we say something like that, we mean "Keep the farmers on the ground, and don't make space the place where the Jedi-wannabes go to farm, not fly. I can sympathize, but I can't endorse it. Keeping space underpopulated keeps it out of the developers' view.
Your vision of space may or may not agree with my vision of space. Your version of 'flying' may or may not be my version of flying. Again, the 'we're the _real_ pilots, we aren't up here to grind' argument rings holier-than-thou to my ears. I'm in space for anything I bloody please, and I'm sure you're up there for the same reason. Who am I to say why you're there, or what you can do?
And for the record, I'm a Jedi. I'm a completed-template Jedi. I'm a Freelance Master Pilot, and I mastered pilot with a hell of a lot more enthusiasm than I did Jedi. I love space. I love outfitting my ship. I love being a Jedi. I ask for NO JEDI POWERS/EFFECTS in space. Never have. I'm not in favor of a 'jedi only' chassis. Don't want it, don't need it.
As I've said before, let's call a spade a spade; some of you hate the Jedi system, fine. But the majority of the logical problems with FS/Prestige conversion can be easily addressed.
As I've pointed out, the people that want to keep Jedi-trainers out of space don't necessarily hate Jedi, but instead hate what people do to get to Jedi. There are enough problems with people "playing" Jedi right now, are you really so blind to the fact that those complaints and problems would only increase exponentially if it became easier to get a Jedi?
That's what would happen if space XP is added to the conversion mix.
Thanks for the reasoned responses. I appreciate the time you have taken to demonstrate your points. Please take nothing as a personal attack, I'm only arguing the points put forth.
I see a segment of the game that I enjoy. I see that there is a huge chunk of collected exp that does absolutely nothing for me right now. I see a (relatively) simple way for the Developers to make a portion of my play useful, and to possibly draw more people to this segment of the game. I agree that there may be drawbacks, but I feel that they are heavily outweighed by the benefits. I honestly believe that trying to stifle this is a shortsighted impulse, and will come back to haunt us.
I do not see this, if properly implemented, as making becoming a Jedi any easier. I see it making the lengthy grind more fun. Would you rather spend 100 hours killing helpless animals, or would you rather spend 100 hours in space dusting enemies? If it takes 100 hours each way, where's the real problem? Our pilots are quick to tout how the space game requires more skill and reaction than the ground game, but they seem equally quick to try to ensure that they're not recognized for it in terms of FS. They're quick to point out that there's no fast way to 'grind' Pilot experience. They're quick to imply that they have more skill and patience than the equivalent ground-bound player. If this is really the case, would it not follow that 'grinders' would stay on the ground anyway?
FrankLee wrote:
I write code where I work on a daily basis. It's not a stretch to say that the code to convert one type of experience to another is already in place, because it's obvious. I'm troubled by a possible inequity in prestige accumulation by privateer/imperial/rebel pilots, but this is a balance issue and could be handled in a number of ways. To my knowledge, a ship worth 1k prestige to me is worth 1k prestige to my rebel counterpart. I don't see the imbalance. Further, I don't see how conversion will be _more_ time-consuming than new chassis, new zones, new specials, new parts, or any of the other suggestions I've heard put forth as prestige-drains.
The imbalance comes in when you factor xp gain over time, and relative damage output, and target availability. When you take one instance, sure everything balances. However a Privateer who has many more Yellow dot targets in space, and the added advantage of a Krayt, would clearly profit under any conversion system.
Thanks for the reasoned responses. I appreciate the time you have taken to demonstrate your points. Please take nothing as a personal attack, I'm only arguing the points put forth.
I see a segment of the game that I enjoy. I see that there is a huge chunk of collected exp that does absolutely nothing for me right now. I see a (relatively) simple way for the Developers to make a portion of my play useful, and to possibly draw more people to this segment of the game. I agree that there may be drawbacks, but I feel that they are heavily outweighed by the benefits. I honestly believe that trying to stifle this is a shortsighted impulse, and will come back to haunt us.
This is the crux of it. I see it as shortsighted to push for change when we haven't seen the full picture from development, there are changes and additions being made to space all the time. I see it as shortsighted to cry off the long term effects of this sort of change as negligible. I see it as shortsighted to not understand that we get X amount of Dev time, and to subtract from it for any change but the most important ones, means a longer wait for the more important ones. There are lots of professions trying to buy out of FS conversion right now, since there's nothing in it for them, and it attracts the all the sorts of people they prefer to avoid. When we have a chance to go one way or another in expressing our feelings, its selfish and shortsighted to think "well I don't act like that, so it must be an ok change to push for anyway."
I do not see this, if properly implemented, as making becoming a Jedi any easier. I see it making the lengthy grind more fun. Would you rather spend 100 hours killing helpless animals, or would you rather spend 100 hours in space dusting enemies? If it takes 100 hours each way, where's the real problem? Our pilots are quick to tout how the space game requires more skill and reaction than the ground game, but they seem equally quick to try to ensure that they're not recognized for it in terms of FS. They're quick to point out that there's no fast way to 'grind' Pilot experience. They're quick to imply that they have more skill and patience than the equivalent ground-bound player. If this is really the case, would it not follow that 'grinders' would stay on the ground anyway?
Speculation on whether they would stay or go doesnt enforce your case much I'm afraid. There are sound economic reasons todisallow thepath to jedi via space. In the end, allowing people to grind FS in space allows them to buy out of the economy that much sooner. It only promotes the solo game, and doesnt encourage even as much spending as the traditional grind. Its a can of worms that shouldn't be opened since it goes against a few basic design principles of the game.
You peripherally mention the upcoming CURB, and yet fail to realize that most of the changes coming will only increase the length of the grind on the ground, yet there are no planned changes for Space. If our xp rates stay the same, there is no reason an FS grinder would do anything but go to space, no matter what fair conversion rate they come up with. Then the can begins to overflow. Pilot FS grinders come in and post about wanting some benefit in the FS trees for piloting, then the Jedi come in and say they want to earn xps or have powers in space. Why can't you see that, if you keep calling us shortsighted?
Can you honestly say you want those sorts of changes to come? Is a game where the only possible fun is to become a Jedi the one you want?