Pilot Archive
Thread: A controversial statement
I do agree the engine is the single most important part of any ship, but my take on it is you only need just enough engine to compete. If you've got that, a dozen other considerations will end up deciding who wins and who loses, luck among them.
ya but your prenerf as i recall is kinda sorta like uber or something
yours is the exception, not the rule. 
By comparison, mines mediocre. (69 YPR, 95 speed, 9K mass) Compare that to a 78 YPR, 97 or greater speed L8 RE jobs. Your pushing 1.2 on the chassis with an L6, while your oppoents are pushing 1.3 or 1.4. The only advantage you have with a prenerf is the lightweight mass. Post ROTW, that means nothing with ships like the JSF. lately though im finding that ive lost the "arms race" in space PvP. Compared to some of the engines that people i know are strapping in now. I feel its part of the reason why ive lost a couple fights. one other thing that ive learned in the last couple days is that with some of these newer REd L8 (starmap)engines, corner velocity can be achieved at much lower throttle percentages. That has cost me a couple fights, but hey i learned something new.
S-1-l2-H-C wrote:
right before ROTW came out i had the pleasure of getting whipped by kitten while i was flying my 3 million credit heavy tie (we had to use vet resource packs to make it, sincewe couldnt mine yet).
i had a re l10 engine with 80ypr, so i clearly had a huge advantage in turn rate, but she beat me by avoiding a circle fight. i think she flew more of an elliptical path, slowing down where she cornered and usingthe angle of attack limiter to180in a much shorter distance. thats one thing the old ships can do better than the relics; the relics dont come to ascreaching halt as badly as the awingwhen you turn too hard.
^ Sounds what I been saying ever since I experienced/seen these new rotw ships in action. The A-wing in particular can 'backflip' practically on the spot even with a mediocre lvl 6 engine because of that angle of attack limiter. Also, I have found that in space pvp...a lot of the time especially nowadays..you cannont rely on a purely 'just turning fight'. At times I find I have to make it look like I'm retreating only to double back at my opponent while they're getting their barings. I've been also finding that when turning...constant careful adjustment of throttle can really improve your ships responce in a turning fight.
Remember..and ask yourself ..in most turning fights what do you get into thinking? Somthing like..'Oh we're going to keep spinning more or less uniformly until one of us hits the other'...I know at times I thought that and its then when I realise that just breaking off can really throw your opponent off. Spinning around each other in a dogfight can be taken for granted.
If they're less experienced than you or even if they're more experienced and just used to winning a lot...doing somthing spontaineous like flying off at a tangent can get you off their screens for a good few seconds while they get used to the fact that they're not following you in that standard pattern...even if you 'were' flying eratically even for a circle.
As for the heavy TIE....it is a huge target. It -needs- that high r,p,y acceleration just so you can get the thing out of the way of enemy fire. Also with a chin mounted cannon, well pve wise it may be uber for the grinding pilot, but pvp wise, I really don't rate it. Sure it has the capacity to fit on an uber weapon, shield and engine but I just don't think thats enough when it sports two large solar panels which may as well say 'hit me'.
Getting back into context though, from my experience...and I appreciate somehere have had more experience than me, but I honestly feel it is a combination of both elements. You cannot say battles are won purely on skill....the fact that everyones ships even like A-wing to A-wing and Tie fighter to Tie fighter are usually way different..there is no standardisation..
However, you cannot say that battles are won purely on engines being better etc.
Battles are won on a combination on the two factors...it is as much as a test of skill as it is an equipment race and both are symbiotic with each other IMO.
I've always been a fan of group battles over 1vs 1 because I think group battles encourage pilots to fly a LOT better since they're forced to keep track on several enemy who potentially could be gunning for them all at the same time and forces them to fly in a more non uniform fashion.
-Leaph
Bagged a couple of Y wings, a guy in an xwing twice, one YT in deepspace (what was he thinking?!), and one Krayt twice who later came back in a Vashei whatever its called.
Somewhere in the middle of that i switched from my oppy to the heavy Tie.
I wasnt having fun in the oppy. I was FP grinding at the time and all of a sudden i have a couple rebels at the ISD.
Anyway, i think the funnest part was my heavy tie vs the vashayl thingmabop BS light fighter.
Apparenty i need to start packing heavier firepower then a 3700 max damage cannon. Nailed taht guy 3 times before he scored a hit on me. This went on for 5 freaking minutes. Each hit he just shunted. Just wasnt quite enough damage to get into his subsystems. id say most of the fight i was inside him. Kind of a drag, i should have had that fight. At any rate, i came back in my oppy, popped him and logged cause im going to bed
WIsh i rememberd to ask him what he had for an engine. But so far, heres what im starting to think..really....all thanks to ROTW ships.
L6 engine is obsolete, L8's were im thinking where its at.
More ppl are packing L8 shields.
Larger guns then what was adequate enough in the past might be needed now. Single L7? Not quite gonna cut it.
Because of all that, chassis for PvP has changed somewhat. Sad to say i think my 50K mass T/I is obsolete. using a T/F or a T/A with chin mounted guns is like hitting an eye of a needle with a needle. Ill ad mit it, im not THAT good, so its not the most attractive option. So im stuck here with the idea of being a missle tard because the RG tie quest is bugged and i can't get it, and i really dont want to be another JSF lemming.
BAH!
EDIT:
>>Remember..and ask yourself ..in most turning fights what do you get into thinking?
Im thinking one of two things.
Im thinking.
1.) Get inside him, stick to him like stink on s**t, and gun his F'ing brains out!
or
2.) Fly defensivly and wait for an opening.
Regardless of these two, im always thinking, "what is this guy gonna try and do", and gauging my throttle. Typically if i feel that hes starting to slip out from infront of me, ill try a barrel roll. IE pulling hard on the stick in a diganal (either left or right) using Yaw + pitch, then roll the ship in the opposite direction of which way i yanked on the joystick. A couple times ive come up on his 3/9 line, but not very often.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 07-06-2005 02:04 AM
1. Situational Awareness
2. Tactics
3. Maneuvering (heavily influenced by hardware)
The biggest baddest engine in the galaxy isn't going to help you if you don't realize the bandit is on your 6. Numerical advantages aren't going to help you if you approach a target in line astern formation. And as for maneuvering, unless you're aware of what your enemy is doing at the moment, you're taking a shot in the dark about what's right and wrong.
I've killed people in my standard Y-Wing while helping guildies grind XP in Deep Space. It doesn't get much more mismatched than that.
Ducimus wrote:
Hmm well i had a little fun tonight. Amazingly enough there were overt rebels out.
Bagged a couple of Y wings, a guy in an xwing twice, one YT in deepspace (what was he thinking?!), and one Krayt twice who later came back in a Vashei whatever its called.
Somewhere in the middle of that i switched from my oppy to the heavy Tie.
I wasnt having fun in the oppy. I was FP grinding at the time and all of a sudden i have a couple rebels at the ISD.
Anyway, i think the funnest part was my heavy tie vs the vashayl thingmabop BS light fighter.
Apparenty i need to start packing heavier firepower then a 3700 max damage cannon. Nailed taht guy 3 times before he scored a hit on me. This went on for 5 freaking minutes. Each hit he just shunted. Just wasnt quite enough damage to get into his subsystems. id say most of the fight i was inside him. Kind of a drag, i should have had that fight. At any rate, i came back in my oppy, popped him and logged cause im going to bed
WIsh i rememberd to ask him what he had for an engine. But so far, heres what im starting to think..really....all thanks to ROTW ships.
L6 engine is obsolete, L8's were im thinking where its at.
More ppl are packing L8 shields.
Larger guns then what was adequate enough in the past might be needed now. Single L7? Not quite gonna cut it.
Because of all that, chassis for PvP has changed somewhat. Sad to say i think my 50K mass T/I is obsolete. using a T/F or a T/A with chin mounted guns is like hitting an eye of a needle with a needle. Ill ad mit it, im not THAT good, so its not the most attractive option. So im stuck here with the idea of being a missle tard because the RG tie quest is bugged and i can't get it, and i really dont want to be another JSF lemming.
BAH!
EDIT:
>>Remember..and ask yourself ..in most turning fights what do you get into thinking?
Im thinking one of two things.
Im thinking.
1.) Get inside him, stick to him like stink on s**t, and gun his F'ing brains out!
or
2.) Fly defensivly and wait for an opening.
Regardless of these two, im always thinking, "what is this guy gonna try and do", and gauging my throttle. Typically if i feel that hes starting to slip out from infront of me, ill try a barrel roll. IE pulling hard on the stick in a diganal (either left or right) using Yaw + pitch, then roll the ship in the opposite direction of which way i yanked on the joystick. A couple times ive come up on his 3/9 line, but not very often.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 07-06-2005 02:04 AM
Hehe, I use a 3.1k damage gun alone on my A-wing and I'm glad you've experienced what I've got a few times. The times I been killed in pvp this lately..I've almost always scored at least two hits prior to their single crippling blow of death, but as much as I could say 'hey lets unpack the grievous', I think I'll personally stay with my ship even though I know I could do better in somthing else. I am still yet to try WO4. I don't usually fire constantly in a turning fight these days. I'm pretty selective with my shots and try and time them so I might be able to make use of that capacitor killing overload...if it doesn't completely disable my ship.
-Leaph
I bet Chuck Norris would own at this game 
I think ive been scrutinizing, analyizing, strategizing, and generaly going over this game trying to pick out every little thing.... entirely too long.
But ya, Chuck Norris would own. But Bruce lee would OMGWTFBBQPWN!
Message Edited by Ducimus on 07-06-2005 09:12 AM
I think that a couple major factors in a turning battle that have overlooked or only touched on briefly are inertia and Optimal turning speed range.
Intertia in a turning battle can be a great asset. For instance, I was trying out my shiney new Vaksai in DS and come across a rebel vaksai. The approach was normal neither landing a hit. (I don't think either of us even tried.) We went directly into the turn. As we both began sliding around the severly small circle. We ended up less than 50m apart and nose to nose. That is a full 90+ degrees. (He ended up winning because he practiced more with the wide weapon spread and landed all his shots while I missed one.) However, in my JSF which I normally use in PvP (I'm a freelancer and we don't get good dogfighters without droping to 35k mass and getting a massive hitbox), I can only get slightly more than 45 degrees of slide in a turn.
Optimal turning speed RANGE, just because you can turn at optimal turning speed at 95% doesn't mean that you should. tighter turning circle includes distance traveled so the slowest speed at which you can maintain your optimal turning is the best for a turning fight. This is purely a function of chassis. For example, (given similar engines and similar inertia) most a-wings OTS range is about 90 to 95% throttle, my JSF OTS range is about 60-100% which means I can turn my max turning rate at a lower speed thus moving less distace and turning a smaller circle while still having the top speed available for the rest of combat.
Still though im gonna have to quote myself.
Ducimus wrote:
I think ive been scrutinizing, analyizing, strategizing, and generaly going over this game trying to pick out every little thing.... entirely too long.
Why did i have to be the one to start said topic? lol. Stare at something long enough, you start seeing things. Maybe i need to give JTL a rest again and do somethign else. I try too hard to nail everything down. Its not like im going to be winning anything no matter how hard i try to understand and wrap my head around every facet of JTL.
Dammit, cut it twice and its still too short!