Pilot Archive
Thread: Would you support removing the targetter from PvP?
JanuHull wrote:
One of the things I've discovered having come from a mindset where I thought PvP should be like PvE and changing to the point of enjoying the current PvP system is the realization that once you are up to the point where you can compete with others in the turns, the pace of combat, in my opinion, actuallyslows down to a managable level. Instead of trying to quickly spam as many shots into your opponent as possible before he returns the favor, you are wrestling him for position to make the one shot that could end it.
Exactly...this is why I carry a L10 laser 
I love JTL PvP the way it is. Sure we need some fixes, but the base game mechanics are on target. No other game gets my adrenaline going that much or my palms as sweaty.
JanuHull wrote:
One of the things I've discovered having come from a mindset where I thought PvP should be like PvE and changing to the point of enjoying the current PvP system is the realization that once you are up to the point where you can compete with others in the turns, the pace of combat, in my opinion, actuallyslows down to a managable level. Instead of trying to quickly spam as many shots into your opponent as possible before he returns the favor, you are wrestling him for position to make the one shot that could end it.
Once you're in the turns, there are all sorts of options open. Do you hold the high ground with more speed, do you slow for the inside track hoping your opponent overflies you, do you hold steady on veolcity, or do you let inertial sliding push you into a more elliptical path for the rare straight shot? Even better, getting into the turn, rolling on axis, then reversing your turn can break the tight turn and force a reset into another turn where your initial entry into the mix gives you more advantage or a quick joust that can open opportunities.
That's where PvP in space is worth the investment of timegetting into the upper tier of players over the ground game. Its not aboutshot spam or mitigation or template, its about you physically working yourself into position and making every shot count and any ship has a legitimate shot, however long the odds might be.
mclouj wrote:
Hmmm thats an interesting idea.
WhatI assumed that box did was allow the client/server synchronisation to allow for lag, so people on dialup or people not in the US could still hit things in space.So removing itwould cause serious issues for people playing from places where it's impossible to get a ping under 250.
Without that targetting box I would be missing with every shotI think. When I try hitting a ship that I don't have targetted it always turns out the little green box is always an extra 10-20m ahead of where the assumed angle of deflection should be.
Kehtal did it to me a few nights back, Heavy TIE w/ lvl 10 engine vs A-wing w/ pre-nerf 6, both of us using EO4... I couldn't touch that A-wing. Think I was running the throttle to high, but wow. And to think I'm trying to ween myself back down to an Advanced.
JanuHull wrote:
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
JanuHull wrote:
One of the things I've discovered having come from a mindset where I thought PvP should be like PvE and changing to the point of enjoying the current PvP system is the realization that once you are up to the point where you can compete with others in the turns, the pace of combat, in my opinion, actuallyslows down to a managable level. Instead of trying to quickly spam as many shots into your opponent as possible before he returns the favor, you are wrestling him for position to make the one shot that could end it.
Once you're in the turns, there are all sorts of options open. Do you hold the high ground with more speed, do you slow for the inside track hoping your opponent overflies you, do you hold steady on veolcity, or do you let inertial sliding push you into a more elliptical path for the rare straight shot? Even better, getting into the turn, rolling on axis, then reversing your turn can break the tight turn and force a reset into another turn where your initial entry into the mix gives you more advantage or a quick joust that can open opportunities.
That's where PvP in space is worth the investment of timegetting into the upper tier of players over the ground game. Its not aboutshot spam or mitigation or template, its about you physically working yourself into position and making every shot count and any ship has a legitimate shot, however long the odds might be.
/salute, Very well said.
And every now and then, you think you're at this level and you have a run in with someone who makes you go W-T-F was that?!
Yeah, Dmitry was like that for me. He saw my old sig about JSF pilots, so he called me out on it. We met in Deep Space and I took him down three times without breaking a sweat,I was even typing suggestions to him while we were in the turns.
Not two weeks later I stuck the A-Wing in the hangar and started working on a Heavy Z-95 to get back on top again. He's hell on wheels in a Heavy Scyk.
Darkknight109 wrote:
ProCambarus wrote:
The old type of targetting system is not really compatible with the new ship parts. In the old system there was no refire rate, so when you hit the fire it had an instantenous hit. In this system the time your weapon fires depends on the active time elapsed since it was fired last time. (Refire rate). Also in the old system it provided a guaranteed hit and no other setting resulted a hit. With the weapon alignments introduced it would not be practical. (Would it hit? Which slot/weapon would?)
Have you ever played TIE Fighter?
You will be suprised. I "soloed"X wing and Tie Fighter (later XWA) many many times, I considered them to be among the best games of all time and these were the major motives of mine anticipating and having SWG.
It's almost identical to JtL in terms of mechanics. There was a refire rate in the old system and it wasn't an instantaneous hit...
It might look similar, but it is substantially different. In T/F if you trigger the weapon it fires the active weapon group immediately THEN it stops until the preset refire rate and then fires the active weapon group again. In SWG more often than not there is an initial delay for how the weapons work. It calculates based on how long you keep the fire button pressed. You have to keep the button pressed for the whole time according to the refire rate to have the next shot, even if you interrupt fireing. Weapons (in the same group) are more independent and you can see the individual/variable frequencies they are shot. As there is an INITIAL delay when you press the button, it is the reason why the old system is not applicable. Naturally I do know that the old system calculated with vectors and the it was scored on landing, if it was not clear, my apologies. The instant element was the fire when triggered.
It took into account weapon allignments (which existed in that game as well... TIE Defender's spread could be a real hassle at times.)
This is where I am not certain looking back and I don't have DOS on anymore to check that, but I cannot recall shots not dealing full damage of all weapons linked and fired simultaneously.
The system calculated the predicted hit or miss based on a shot fired out of the next gun set to fire. I suppose that could be a problem for those that instantly switch between multiple group weapons, but I would just simplify things by saying whichever group is "selected" (as is noted currently on the right side of the screen) is the one the targetter calculates for, as, odds are, that's the one that will be firing. If you mean what slot/weapon would it hit, that's the same as it is current system.
Remember how fire linking worked? Linking fire=halving speed. This is quite the opposite of the current system, where -again- all weapons have their RR circling unrelated to each other. But the point again is in the initial delay when you trigger a weapon.
Darkknight109 wrote:
KaylBreinhar wrote:
It's useless in fast-paced PvP anyway. You can only trust it in PvE - unless you're flying against a really god-awful pilot, you can't trust it in PvP.
Actually it's not. Maybe not for aiming to hit them, but when they fly off your screen it lets you know exactly where they are. Which makes for very close, un-star warsy PvP.
Okay, so under this logic, why not penalize people who have higher screen resolutions (such as 1600x1200) since their wider perspective would give them an unfair advantage over players using 1024x768. Same principle.
Hell, this is a huge hotbutton issue with the 1920x1080 HD capability of the upcoming consoles - players with HDTVs (and PS3 owners with two of 1920x1080 capability) having an unfair advantage over lesser-equipped players on older tube televisions.
JTL isn't XvT - it isn't even XWA. It's a glorified Rogue Squadron with a chat function (harsh, I know, but until they focus on JTL more, it's the truth). They're not going to take away the lead indicator, because it helps newbies. And, as another denizen of this forum said on his podcast, if they can't fix a decimal point to correct WO3, they're not going to remove the lead indicator.
Think about it - some people won't even do their T1 DUTIES because "teehee, it's too hard to learn how to do anything other than macro!!!" - requiring people to learn to use the radar would be like trying to teach a comatose chimpanzee Euclidian geometry.
Iawo wrote:
xTekx wrote:
You sir need to do some research on this forum. This topic has been beat to death, then ground to dust, then spread over the land of horses. Bottom line is damage reduction is not needed. WO3 needs to be fixed first. Damage reduction would ruin PvP in space and make people invincible. Do some searching and do some reading. Lots of it there.
Iawo wrote:
Wouldn't really bother me much, since I don't rely on the lagged crosshairs anyway. I think the better idea though would be to add some damage reduction in PvP. It's just too easy to blow somebody else up with the damage ships do compared to the shields. Unless that has already been done? I haven't done space PvP in a long time, so I wouldn't know.I do know it was the fact that I could blow somebody up in 2 shots that really turned me off from space PvP in a hurry. I ground almost my entire T4 line overt to earn FP's as well, and I didn't see a single overt ship that whole time. Only time I went in Deep Space with friend, there was somebody that killed us as we loaded in. Not much fun.
You need to quit flaming everyone you disagree with. What is with people on these forums? It's flame flame flame, no discussion. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If all of you think that CTSS 4 would be too powerful if damage reduction was added, then you must all fly reall fast ships with only one weapon slot.I'd like to see PvP take a turn to something called skill and balance instead of whoever has the smaller, faster ship or who can load-gank the most.
Sorry, but you are so wrong it isnt even funny.
1. I want my Star Wars fights to be like the films and books. Go back and watch the films, ships die after a couple of shots.
2. CTSS4 and a good DI/Cap can get your lvl8 reward shield refilled in seconds.
3. I fly my Xwing and Ywing for PvP and 99% of the time its me in my big/slow ship that wins. Thats cause I use my skill to beat them. Try practicing more, its what I did, dont ask for space to be baby-proofed anymore!
I have a great idea, how about a force sensitive space skill granted to you by Obi-wan in the next expansion (if you are a jedi and do the quest) that gives you the ability to "switch off your targeting computer" thereby increasing your ability to lock-on with missiles, plus increasing the hitbox of the enemy by 5 times.
Cuchulainn /runs away and ducks behind the first available cover
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
I have a great idea, how about a force sensitive space skill granted to you by Obi-wan in the next expansion (if you are a jedi and do the quest) that gives you the ability to "switch off your targeting computer" thereby increasing your ability to lock-on with missiles, plus increasing the hitbox of the enemy by 5 times.
Cuchulainn /runs away and ducks behind the first available cover
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
I have a great idea, how about a force sensitive space skill granted to you by Obi-wan in the next expansion (if you are a jedi and do the quest) that gives you the ability to "switch off your targeting computer" thereby increasing your ability to lock-on with missiles, plus increasing the hitbox of the enemy by 5 times.
Cuchulainn /runs away and ducks behind the first available cover
Nah, you automatically get lock after 10 seconds and your missile is immune to CMs, but you have to fly completely level for those 10 seconds.
And your astromech is badly damaged!
I appreciate reading what you wiser ones have said about how PVP works and the drawback of reducing damage. I wonder though how PVP would be affected by correcting the WO3 bug. Would it last any longer? I don't want a three hour fight nor a 20 or 30 minute one either. But someone brought up the fact that what you guys talk about being our pvp system isnt how it is in the books and movies.
Turn wars doesnt bother me so much. The goal of a dogfight is obviously to gain the position from which to kill your enemy. The fact that both players know how to do it results in the turn war/dance. Back to the movies issue. How viable would a turn war be if you were flying in a squadron with wingmen and coordination. Forgive my ignorance on this last, finding another pilot in space is infrequent for me.
To the targetting. F-16's had active targetting in Top Gun for missiles. I am sure in the technological universe that Star Wars exists in makes that targetting assist easy to implement. I would say that it needs to stay. I can't imagine how hard it would be to learn to fly without it. Sure the fly boys would be ok but I bet half of the people that took up space would stop in frustration.
Message Edited by Kosar-Burnd on 10-07-2005 02:07 AM
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:I have a great idea, how about a force sensitive space skill granted to you by Obi-wan in the next expansion (if you are a jedi and do the quest) that gives you the ability to "switch off your targeting computer" thereby increasing your ability to lock-on with missiles, plus increasing the hitbox of the enemy by 5 times.
Cuchulainn /runs away and ducks behind the first available cover
you laugh, but someone actually suggested this a few days ago. at least the missle part anyway.