Pilot Archive
Thread: Would you support removing the targetter from PvP?
Iawo wrote:
xTekx wrote:
You sir need to do some research on this forum. This topic has been beat to death, then ground to dust, then spread over the land of horses. Bottom line is damage reduction is not needed. WO3 needs to be fixed first. Damage reduction would ruin PvP in space and make people invincible. Do some searching and do some reading. Lots of it there.
Iawo wrote:
Wouldn't really bother me much, since I don't rely on the lagged crosshairs anyway. I think the better idea though would be to add some damage reduction in PvP. It's just too easy to blow somebody else up with the damage ships do compared to the shields. Unless that has already been done? I haven't done space PvP in a long time, so I wouldn't know.I do know it was the fact that I could blow somebody up in 2 shots that really turned me off from space PvP in a hurry. I ground almost my entire T4 line overt to earn FP's as well, and I didn't see a single overt ship that whole time. Only time I went in Deep Space with friend, there was somebody that killed us as we loaded in. Not much fun.
You need to quit flaming everyone you disagree with. What is with people on these forums? It's flame flame flame, no discussion. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If all of you think that CTSS 4 would be too powerful if damage reduction was added, then you must all fly reall fast ships with only one weapon slot.I'd like to see PvP take a turn to something called skill and balance instead of whoever has the smaller, faster ship or who can load-gank the most.
Damage reduction would make the smaller faster fighters invincible. Damage reduction would actually hurt heavier fighters' performance in pvp. In a heavy fighter you have to get a quick hit against a smaller opponentand if you can't get past a lvl 8 shield gen with a singlehitthen nothing could stop a JSF or GSF. Battles between two good pilots in small fighters could take up two a couple of hours if there were damage reduction. I would not look forward to that. But this topic has been beaten to death so I'll leave it alone now.
Iawo wrote:
xTekx wrote:
Iawo wrote:
You need to quit flaming everyone you disagree with. What is with people on these forums? It's flame flame flame, no discussion. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If all of you think that CTSS 4 would be too powerful if damage reduction was added, then you must all fly reall fast ships with only one weapon slot.I'd like to see PvP take a turn to something called skill and balance instead of whoever has the smaller, faster ship or who can load-gank the most.
If you think that was a flame then you really need to open your eyes. I wasn't flaming. I was merely pointing out that damage reduction won't work. I dind't want to get in depth on it beause it's been talked about to so many times here. Again, I say do a search and find the threads that discuss this. There's some big ones to read. You will see for yourself that damage reduction would ruin space pvp.
What's to ruin? It already blows... it can't get much worse.
Stop crying and learn to fly. Jesus, if you spent as much time refining and tweaking your ship as you did whining, you could be out there with the rest of us JTL jockeys hunting ROTW clowns in their poonfighters.
Iawo wrote:
Wouldn't really bother me much, since I don't rely on the lagged crosshairs anyway. I think the better idea though would be to add some damage reduction in PvP. It's just too easy to blow somebody else up with the damage ships do compared to the shields. Unless that has already been done? I haven't done space PvP in a long time, so I wouldn't know.I do know it was the fact that I could blow somebody up in 2 shots that really turned me off from space PvP in a hurry. I ground almost my entire T4 line overt to earn FP's as well, and I didn't see a single overt ship that whole time. Only time I went in Deep Space with friend, there was somebody that killed us as we loaded in. Not much fun.
a) it's extremely rare to be load killed. the only way it's actually possible is if somone exploits a bug that i personally have never been able to reproduce, i've never even seen, nor have i had someone present a reliable workflow to recreate.i spend 90% of my time in deep space and have over400 million prestige, so it's not for lack of trying.
it's interesting because it makes me wonder, are you embellishing your "load killed" experience for effect/sympathy? have really not been to deep space since they fixed load killing (possibly week 2 of JTL)?
b) it's extremely evident you have not PVP'd at all in a long time. it's also evident you don't take the time to sit down and consider if what you are asking for is really a smart idea. previous posts discussed cap to shield stunt. since you are a proponent of damage reduction, please explain how you would rectify current experienced pilots having 20-30 minute + fights due to the small hitbox size ships? imagine damage reduction in that scenario.
see the problem is, with people like you who, have little to no experience in PVP, is that they haven't tried the system out long enough to overcome the initial hurdles and understand how much skill it really takes. if some kind of reduction across the board came into play how would you rectify the disparity in equipment between pilots? even with an additional 75% dmg reduction i would essentially kill a player in two shots. only now, having 2555/2555 shields and 2.1k armor, that player, with medicore equipment would take 10+ shots to kill me, IF he could bypass my cap to shield stunt rate. does that sound fun?
the poster above that remarked that the real important portion of your post (highlighted above) was actually not flaming, and dead on. across the board damage reduction is an extremely bad idea, and thankfully the devs and most discerning players have quashed it. it's your perogative not to agree of course, but if you want to see what a damage reduction system is like, take two ships, load them with identical components and go fight with level 1 crafted weapons. after 10 duels, see what your win/loss % is.
next switch out engines and have 1 player use a higher YPR engine. who wins now?
the high YPR engine player will win 100% of the time, unless his aim is extremely poor. now give that player back his 1 shot guns and duel again, and you have the basics of a damage reduction system. what do you think? still "fun"? wouldn't you rather have a chance against any player in the game, even with mediocre equipment? yes, you would. this is not the ground game and we don't need to have a system where player numbers and equipment determine90% of thefights outcome.
and please, don't bother arguing the details of this post with more uninformed arguments. the point when players tell you to go do your research is that the matter has been discussed to death. many MANY players have come up with hundreds of better ideas concerning this topic than your post contained and the community as a whole has done the tests and determined that damage reduction is a bad, bad idea in the framework of the current game. yes, if we did not have variable equipment damage reduction would work. yes, if we did not have droid commands damage reduction would work. i personally don't agree with how well it would work, and submit that most proponents have never played a FPS game that required prolonged multi hit combat, but that's a matter for another post.
currently, most players agree that heavy fighters need some additional help, especially bombers, but the exact method of help is still a topic that is being discussed. why don't you take the other guy's advice, go do the research, spend some time in a PVP system that is actually quite fun, then come back and post about it.
Dragon942 wrote:
I've never used the green thing once in PvP. It's about as accurate as Tek's shooting
Iawo wrote:
xTekx wrote:
Iawo wrote:
You need to quit flaming everyone you disagree with. What is with people on these forums? It's flame flame flame, no discussion. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If all of you think that CTSS 4 would be too powerful if damage reduction was added, then you must all fly reall fast ships with only one weapon slot.I'd like to see PvP take a turn to something called skill and balance instead of whoever has the smaller, faster ship or who can load-gank the most.
If you think that was a flame then you really need to open your eyes. I wasn't flaming. I was merely pointing out that damage reduction won't work. I dind't want to get in depth on it beause it's been talked about to so many times here. Again, I say do a search and find the threads that discuss this. There's some big ones to read. You will see for yourself that damage reduction would ruin space pvp.
What's to ruin? It already blows... it can't get much worse.
/sigh
That is your opinion.. I however think it is the best system in the game. Where else does my survivability depend on what I can do and not what my character can do? In PvP on the ground you have to be CL80 for the most part to even attempt to PvP... and for the most part you ahve to be a Jedi.
Space PvP is supposed to be quick, fast, intense, ugly, pretty, insane, and just down right quick.Your suggesetion would pretty much eliminate it all. It would turn into a circle turn. Here let me sit on this guys tail for 4 minutes while I blast away at his shields. It would be EXACTLY like PvE. And that is not what PvP is supposed to be about.
Let me ask you this. If you haven't PvP'd much, how is it you can say it blows? You haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what PvP is. When you start doing some 1v1 with someone for an hour straight, or getting into a big dogfight where it is 5v5 or 1v5 or 2v3 or 3v5, or even 8v8. Then you're into PvP. I've had people and guildies on Bloodfin tell me that after some of the Sunday night fights that it is the MOST fun they've had in game because it was the most Star Wars feeling in the game. Having Xwings duke it out with TF's in a mass furball that other people are flying and knowing that you could die at any second is what they liked. They knew in the movies that it only took a couple hits to die. And that is what the current PvP system simulates. Quick fast fights that leave you feeling lucky and watching your hands shake like a leaf or going dag nabit, why'd I do that move, i knew better then that, i 'm not going to make that mistake next time. If you put in a damage reduction that is but one aspect of Space PvP that you would take away.
If you want, I will dig down into the vaults and find some links for you to read. I don't want to shun you away from this community. It's the best on the forums, and i'm a smuggler saying this. But I do want you to understand that what you're wanting would be the death nell of JTL.
Message Edited by xTekx on 10-06-2005 11:27 AM
xTekx wrote:
Dragon942 wrote:
I've never used the green thing once in PvP. It's about as accurate as Tek's shooting
Ooooh! Stabbed in the heart! *falls over dead*
But yeah, I wouldn't miss the green thingy. I'm not sure if it NEEDS to go. Doesn't do much either way for me. Does anyone actual use it to any real effect in PvP?
I guess you might use it if you can't see the other guy, like if you are using the first person view in a TIE fighter. But I always used the third person view with the padlock (until I got TrackIR the other day anyway 
) so it was never an issue. I assume it wouldn't be for anyone using third person view or a cockpit with good visibility.
Attacca wrote:
Actually, without meaning to pick on him, the tipoff came when he mentioned he hadn't PvPd in a while. Sorry you got loadkilled mate, but most people seem to accept the 1 or 2 shot kills after some time out flying. I know I hated it at first, now I don't think it would work any other way.
Back on topic, I like the green crosshairs, mainly because against a fast ship that may not even be on my screen while I'm shotting at it the greenspot tells me where my opponent is going to fly next, sorta. As far as actual aiming I usually find they're completely inaccurate for PvP, and only serve as a general guide.
One big note against removing them- we've all had moments where you see the other ship's shields flare, but a hit doesn't actually register. The green crosshair tells you where the server needs you to hit. So long as we have lag and blasters that move at sub-lightspeed, I think we need 'em.
considering the amount of momentum involved in JTLS at times and the fact that in pvp, two goodpilots will ave a hell of a time hitting each other anyway....I think removing the green lead reticle off enemy ships would be a somewhat foolish idea. It isn't exactly 100% accurate anyway so it isn't like it gives anyone an unfair advantage. My oppinon = leave it alone.
As for damage reduction, well...I agree with the other people who have a clue.
One of the things I've discovered having come from a mindset where I thought PvP should be like PvE and changing to the point of enjoying the current PvP system is the realization that once you are up to the point where you can compete with others in the turns, the pace of combat, in my opinion, actuallyslows down to a managable level. Instead of trying to quickly spam as many shots into your opponent as possible before he returns the favor, you are wrestling him for position to make the one shot that could end it.
Once you're in the turns, there are all sorts of options open. Do you hold the high ground with more speed, do you slow for the inside track hoping your opponent overflies you, do you hold steady on veolcity, or do you let inertial sliding push you into a more elliptical path for the rare straight shot? Even better, getting into the turn, rolling on axis, then reversing your turn can break the tight turn and force a reset into another turn where your initial entry into the mix gives you more advantage or a quick joust that can open opportunities.
That's where PvP in space is worth the investment of timegetting into the upper tier of players over the ground game. Its not aboutshot spam or mitigation or template, its about you physically working yourself into position and making every shot count and any ship has a legitimate shot, however long the odds might be.
JanuHull wrote:
One of the things I've discovered having come from a mindset where I thought PvP should be like PvE and changing to the point of enjoying the current PvP system is the realization that once you are up to the point where you can compete with others in the turns, the pace of combat, in my opinion, actuallyslows down to a managable level. Instead of trying to quickly spam as many shots into your opponent as possible before he returns the favor, you are wrestling him for position to make the one shot that could end it.
Once you're in the turns, there are all sorts of options open. Do you hold the high ground with more speed, do you slow for the inside track hoping your opponent overflies you, do you hold steady on veolcity, or do you let inertial sliding push you into a more elliptical path for the rare straight shot? Even better, getting into the turn, rolling on axis, then reversing your turn can break the tight turn and force a reset into another turn where your initial entry into the mix gives you more advantage or a quick joust that can open opportunities.
That's where PvP in space is worth the investment of timegetting into the upper tier of players over the ground game. Its not aboutshot spam or mitigation or template, its about you physically working yourself into position and making every shot count and any ship has a legitimate shot, however long the odds might be.
This is a post from a learned person. Couldn't agree more.