Pilot Archive
Thread: Speculation: How would the abscense of all overloads effect PvP?
Page 3 of 3
Kitten_Starsider
Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:02 am
#27
As weapon overload 3 at the moment both reduces the energy drain of your weapons (including cm launchers) from capacitor and their energy requirement. Fixing WO3 will render most ships unable to provide that much energy anymore, resulting in
Of course there are some of those 20 or 30k generation reactors that will still be able to supply 15k energy for EO4 and for other components with overloads... but it will eventually only favour big ships while small ships have their energy output limited by their mass.
Do not forget that it is hardly possible to run RO4 and EO4 on a ship without sacraficing any systems that will run at reduced efficiency on a 1.1k reactor. Now large ships will just use their uber loot reactor. Should they outrun small interceptor type crafts? Therefore the ability to fit better engines due to higher mass, which was originally limited by fixed chassis stats, will be relatively improved as they will have EO4 while interceptor type ships wont.
By fixing WO3, interceptors wont only loose their good damage output for a ship that is that light but they will also loose their superior maneuverability which again might hurt pvp more than we want to.
As you said we want a fast paced system.
Now add in CO3 and 4 with increased energy usage too and large ships will be top end.
As it already is, small ships reach their maximum effective limit of equipment a lot earlier, leaving no room for superior stuff at a point. High mass ships dont have that limit and will be superior in both equipment (which they already are) and in droid programms (which they will be if they do the above changes).
As you see, fixing WO3 and possibly CO will not increase the importance of energy but just the importance of mass. The entire system will be turned upside down.
You suggest the E/W/S system from the X-Wing series instead of droid commands but don't forget that every X-Wing, A-Wing, B-Wing and Tie in these series are absolutely the same. You do not hunt for loot there, you don't outfit your ship to squeeze best possible effieciency out of it. All the ships of a type are the same. It is a system purely based on the abilities of the pilot.
But we do not have that system in SWG. Equipment has to have at least a minor impact on the outcome of a fight or the entire endgame PvE would be stripped of its meaning.
We both agree that we want a system that is dominated by the abilities of the pilot... but a good ship has to be part of the system too.
In the curent system if you are not rich... you can easily outfit an interceptor with some RE'ed stuff and be good in PvP. Rich players (or those that work hard to loot the best components) get rewarded in a sense that they can outfit higher mass ships and be good in pvp too in a totally different way. Neither is impossible for the other type of players though as poor players will eventually get good equipment for heavy ships too... and rich players can outfit light ships if they want to.
In that sense, the heaviest ships of each faction are truely "master content". You can get the deed when you reach the master skillbox but you will not be able to outfit the ship worthy for pvp yet.
Now what do we do? I obviously don't want the E/W/S system, even though i greatly enjoyed it in X-Wing, XvT and XA. I obviously don't want WO3 and CO to be modified either... they are integral for the curent system of equiping your ship and flying, far more than just a x2 or x2.5 modifier to damage.
You know, sometimes it is easier to say what you don't want than what you want.
Maybe fixing all overload programms but lowering their energy usageincrease alltogether to one level lower (or a percentual reduction to the multiplier) would be the way to go while capacitor energy requirement, damage and other modifiers would be left at theirfixed values. But again... findign arguments against something is easier than for it.
Kitten
Ducimus
Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:31 am
#28
psikobunny wrote:Let me get you to address these points now Ducimus:
- In every PvP damage reduction beg thread, you and I are on the same side against it. One of our main arguments is that current PvP is skill over equipment. Justify for me how you can advocate a change that would seemingly make equipment more important? I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to point out this inconsistency in your statements and get your take on it.
- Also please address the fact that this would raise the bar for the new PvP entrant (in my mind). Where do we draw the line? I prefer skill over gear, in most encounters, but I'm not opposed to rewarding hard work and good crafting either. Straight out removal of overloads seems like it would push an "I win" button in too many cases...
- Can you give a fair shake to the idea of fixing existing programs, implementing fair costs, and restricting free and easy access cross faction? Why do you feel thats less valid than reviving the E/W/S system? I myself would prefer to fix what's there if possible, and I want you to convince me its impossible to fix.
Ok first, let me reiterate that all i'm saying is that i think overloads cause of alot of problems by their very design, so im speculating what would happen if they were removed. It's kind of like working on a car, sometimes you don't know whats going on until you remove the timing belt cover or valve cover. I would like them to be replaced, i would like the system to be changed, but i dont think im saying arbitarly remove them and leave nothign in their place, - again, just speculation. See thread title.
1.) If advocating for the E/W/S system is making equpment more important, i fail to see how. I would think that system puts more into the hands of the pilot if anything. Your in FULL control in that scenario.
2.) What exactly is raising the bar? The notion, the toying around, the speculation of what would happen if droid commands were removed? or the E/W/S system? If its the E/W/S system to which your refering, well, I dont think piloting should be a point and click affair. I like something a bit more engaging that makes it more convincing that im flying a ship. But thats just me.
3.)I tend not to like the idea of droid programs alltogether as a concept. Primarly because they are essentually doc buffs in space. Supercharge everthing after sitting around station buffing yoruself for 4 mins or so and off you go. That design is too RPG, and not enough twitch/sim. Buffing yourself works great on the ground in an RPG skillbased/dice throw enviorment, but in a twitch enviorment when your working a joystick it's different. Fixing that in my opinion would be making them more like the E/W/S system that i think initially inspired them.
But beyond I want a system of ship operation (NOT buffs), that i can manually manipulate on the fly. I want to have to make choices on what i do. I want to have more tactical options available for me. Most of all, im sick and tired of doing a "preflight" *COUGH*.
Again though, like ive already said in another post, ill concede the cheese on a stick that does everything for you is here to stay. So there question starts at how do you convert it from being doc buffs, to a system of ship operation.
AzzixxSWG
Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:44 am
#29
Found this out last night. 2 opressors doing several duels with no overloads. Each of us still die in 2-5 hits.
Ducimus
Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:19 am
#30
JUST FYI.
This thread is the posterchild of "being bored at work and having nothing better to talk about".
Whole reason i started it, i was bored and most of the things on the forums just didnt grab my intrest.
That said, i ended up posting way more than i should have yesterday while at work, so don't be suprised if i dont' come back for round 2
This thread is the posterchild of "being bored at work and having nothing better to talk about".
Whole reason i started it, i was bored and most of the things on the forums just didnt grab my intrest.
That said, i ended up posting way more than i should have yesterday while at work, so don't be suprised if i dont' come back for round 2
Tumbler2002
Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:28 am
#31
Kassuff wrote:Take away no-decay from Deep Space would further reduce the number of players willing to Pvp. There's not enough willing participants as-is on my server.
Tumbler2002 wrote:
I
Another issue I hesitate to raise is activating droid programs in deep space. Since there is no decay there when you hyper out of DS all your droid programs are still running. Which means that master pilots can be running around all space zones running lvl 4 overloads and experiencing no Decay. It may seem like a small issue but all other players have to suffer decay when running lvl 4 programs in those zones and I think it's going to cuase problems if we allow players to turn on lvl 4 programs in deep space and keep them running when their damage is repaired in normal space. Any other ship systems that are repairedin normal space kill teh droid programs that are running on those systems.
I wasn't trying suggest turning off decay. I just want the droid programs to be turned off when you are repaired after leaving deep space. In all other cases when you repair at a station any droid programs that are running get turned off. I would like that to be applied when people leave deep space. (You get repaired for free and it doesn't turn off your droid programs.)
I'd also like players who die to be respawned at the ISD/Rebel Station and be automatically declared overt when they are in deep space. Little changes like that would make more people interested in playing in deep space for longer periods of time. Most players I joust with don't feel like coming back after then get blown up and I think half the reason is the tediousness of going to a station, declaring, then to another station just to get into deep space.
Tsumitsuki
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:52 am
#32
This is the old chestnut again isnt it 
DAMAGE REDUCTION, no matter which way you cut it, whether by increasing shields, reducing damage on weapons, or by nerfing the droid commands, increasing the average time it takes for one ship to kill another is damage reduction.
DAMAGE REDUCTION, no matter which way you cut it, whether by increasing shields, reducing damage on weapons, or by nerfing the droid commands, increasing the average time it takes for one ship to kill another is damage reduction.There are problems yes, Ive been flamed plenty myself as a supporter of DR. The crux of the problem is this, the system means that ONLY 2 (possibly 4) ships make viable PVP ships, The A Wing, the Tie advanced, and possibly the dune lizard and maybe the Oppressor. While the heavier ships can get the turn rates and the top speeds they are slow to respond to the controls and so can't dodge incomming fire very well if at all. Considering a level 7 and a level 8 gun overcharged will one shot a krayt with front shields adjusted to 4.9k and 800 front armour this means the heavy fighters are not very usefull for PVP.
So something definately needs to be done. Perhaps an easier solution rather than damage reduction (tho this _IS_ still damage reduction no matter how you flower it up with pretty words ) would be to increase shield efficiency on a per chasis basis. Thus using the exact same shields the Krayt gets a whopping bonus compared to the A-Wing, (same for the B wing) yes that means the lighter ships which only have one gun are going to have to spend longer hammering on the shields.. but lets not forget these heavy fighters are also going to have a hard time hitting you.. but if they DO then its curtains, thats the point of the HEAVY fighter firepower rather than dance.
firepower rather than dance.Like wise the multiplayer ships should be getting obscene defences compared to the ties and a-wings... it should be taking 5 (made up number)of them to take an MP ship down.. (remember the falcon taking multiple hits off ties?) yes I know thats because the heroes of the story had to stay alive, But anyway a single light fighter should be terrified of an MP ship and not even consider taking it on. A single heavy should think twice.. Likewise a single light should think twice before taking on a heavy. Im sure everyone can agree with that (if it can actually be engineered into the game rules)
To help prevent abuse of the turreted fighters there perhaps should be a limit to the level of weapon that can go in the turret? (remeber these are NOT true MP ships, just 2 seater fighters)
Satch_of_GL
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:10 am
#33
I don't think it would affect PVP all that much. PVE yes, but not PVP. Larger ships would be able to compete more effectively. They have the larger reactors and capacitors. Small ships would be flying slower, making them easier targets for MP ships. It would make things interesting. You couldn't just tape down the trigger of your A-Wing any more and go off flying.
Ducimus
Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:18 am
#34
I really need to not start threads while bored at work. They invariably become something i wish i hadn't started that always get necro'ed 
Message Edited by Ducimus on 04-21-2005 10:18 AM
Page 3 of 3