Pilot Archive

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JanuHull wrote:

I hear all kinds of insults hurled at POBs because of their lacking maneuverability,

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The maneuverability of the POB ships is just fine and makes sense, they are WAY too weak in the defense and damagedepartment.

Those who look forward to capital ships probably hope that those this time will have appropriate firepower and defensive possibilities .

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JanuHull wrote:

Kind of a separate issue, but PvE damage is a little low anyway. You already have nearly invincible PvE fortresses in the form of ultralight extremely agile fighters that can buzz through a hail of blaster bolts without significant threat.

I can solo the ISD in an A-Wing without ever having to use CapShunt. PvE is already whacked by borked defenses in the form of overmaneuverability. How does giving POB extreme rigid defenses equal to the passive maneuvering defense of light fighters screw up PvE anymore than it is already?

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The difference is, the kind of PVE invincibility you're talking about requires skills and time to pull off: the skills to hit and evade in a single pass, and the time to restore your shields to the point where you can safely make another pass.

Say, however, you give POBs 100,000 HP worth of shields and armor, enough for 5-10 seconds of fire from a single well-outfitted Krayt or Heavy X-Wing in PVP. What's going to ever pose a threat in PVE? Really, a POB should be able to tank in PVE better than it does--most ships count on evasion to survive in fights against Vettes and gunboats or anything else with a lot of firepower, and since POBs can't evade, they need to be able to soak.

But those 100,000 HP, so necessary for PVP, would turn PVE even more ridiculous than it may already seem. At least strafing runs on the ISD requires a modicum of skill and tactics. Parking yourself in missile range and seeing how much havoc you can wreak in the minute or two it takes for your shields to be knocked out, however, seems contrary to the spirit of JTL. POBs need a role, but that isn't it--not to that degree, anyway. But that's the degree you'd need to reach to be viable in PVP, and that's why I don't think you can get POBs right with nothing more than changes to component strength. That may be a part of a good solution, but it's going to take systemic changes to complete that solution.

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TomoRainer wrote:

But that's the degree you'd need to reach to be viable in PVP, and that's why I don't think you can get POBs right with nothing more than changes to component strength. That may be a part of a good solution, but it's going to take systemic changes to complete that solution.

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Aren't they starting this with the POB only weapons or is that as far as the devs are going to go?

If POBs were available earlier in the tree, I can see them making PvE a joke as more of an issue. At Ace, there isn't a whole lot of PvE to make a mockery of. The only real issues would be things like the Vette in Deep Space and post-Ace pilots helping other people through their missions. And post-Ace pilots can already trivialize all challenge in pilot missions if the people involved are interested in doing so, so that doesn't really strike me as an issue either.

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TomoRainer wrote:

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JanuHull wrote:

Kind of a separate issue, but PvE damage is a little low anyway. You already have nearly invincible PvE fortresses in the form of ultralight extremely agile fighters that can buzz through a hail of blaster bolts without significant threat.

I can solo the ISD in an A-Wing without ever having to use CapShunt. PvE is already whacked by borked defenses in the form of overmaneuverability. How does giving POB extreme rigid defenses equal to the passive maneuvering defense of light fighters screw up PvE anymore than it is already?

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The difference is, the kind of PVE invincibility you're talking about requires skills and time to pull off: the skills to hit and evade in a single pass, and the time to restore your shields to the point where you can safely make another pass.

Say, however, you give POBs 100,000 HP worth of shields and armor, enough for 5-10 seconds of fire from a single well-outfitted Krayt or Heavy X-Wing in PVP. What's going to ever pose a threat in PVE? Really, a POB should be able to tank in PVE better than it does--most ships count on evasion to survive in fights against Vettes and gunboats or anything else with a lot of firepower, and since POBs can't evade, they need to be able to soak.

But those 100,000 HP, so necessary for PVP, would turn PVE even more ridiculous than it may already seem. At least strafing runs on the ISD requires a modicum of skill and tactics. Parking yourself in missile range and seeing how much havoc you can wreak in the minute or two it takes for your shields to be knocked out, however, seems contrary to the spirit of JTL. POBs need a role, but that isn't it--not to that degree, anyway. But that's the degree you'd need to reach to be viable in PVP, and that's why I don't think you can get POBs right with nothing more than changes to component strength. That may be a part of a good solution, but it's going to take systemic changes to complete that solution.

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question: why not add a damage mitigation to PvP (oooh, i dont know.... 75%?), and increase the size of the shields/ armor/ capacitors on the POB?

those changes, in addition to gyroscopic turrets might make POBs a lot more combat viable, and, in my opinion, "solve" the POB issue.

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TomoRainer wrote:


So what about PVE, then? They just turn into invincible fortresses there?

That's why fixing POBs is so hard--they fall far shorter in PVP than in PVE, so a change meant to address one is going to leave them either under- or overpowered in the other. You really need systemic changes to make them worthwhile vessels. Well.. probably better components, and then systemic changes on top of that. That oughta do the trick.

That, in turn, is why I think it's too early to assume cap ships are going to be novelties as well--a new system has the potential for a worthwhile system. Must it by necessity? No.. but with the info we've got, i.e. little to none, there's really no way to make that call at this point.

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What POB's really need is a role true to thier uses. IE: non-combat, these are ships that need a direct link to the smugglers out there. Of course any good smuggler will want weapons, but a POB originally designed for non-combat roles shouldn't always be as good in a fight as a starfighter.

Just my two-cents on the issue.

Given that you need a crew of 4 to operate a PoB effectively (5 if you want a repair man), I really don't think this is as big a problem as it might seem to be. You're going to need that extra armor simply because you can't manuever very well. A PoB versus a single Tier 5 should be overwhelmingly 1-sided in favor of the PoB ship. Making it so that a PoB had 30-50k shields F/B would go a long ways towards making them viable in combat.

When you consider that you can't really take any evasive action at all in the PoB ships, there is a need to be forgiving in terms of damage they can take. You would still need skill to operate the ship effectively, since you're having to coordinate with your entire crew to accomplish goals - it's simply a different kind of skill. An unskilled group in a PoB would still get wasted if they weren't playing smart, just as an unskilled pilot would get wasted if he couldn't pull evasive manuevers very well. I think some of the bombers/heavy fighters need some help in this area as well, which is why I think a chassis armor/shield modifier might be in order.

And as already mentioned, you're not flying on of these unless you're an Ace, so the argument that it trivializes PvE is somewhat moot, since most things are trivial if you're a half way decent pilot (and even a flying fortress PoB would have trouble with the Kashyyk insane duty missions - despite the fact it's the equivalent of 4 people grouping together for it).

Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 07-12-2005 08:55 PM

maybe we can compromise and get 50,000 HP for now?

Message Edited by quadpers0n on 07-12-2005 11:14 PM

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doghairedinfant wrote:

question: why not add a damage mitigation to PvP (oooh, i dont know.... 75%?), and increase the size of the shields/ armor/ capacitors on the POB?

those changes, in addition to gyroscopic turrets might make POBs a lot more combat viable, and, in my opinion, "solve" the POB issue.

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If that 75% reduction's applied to POBs only, I do actually think that's one way to make POBs viable in PVE and PVP. Maybe even something else on top of that. But upping their component strength while reducing damage dealt to them in PVP could work reasonably well, I think.

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alyris wrote:

First off, I must state that I realize that you have way more experience with anything dealing with space. I'm just offering opinions. But, the problem is, there is no reason to take anything other than a jsf into a fight. Everyone talks about POB's, what about bombers as well? Why shouldn't the POB's be fortresses? Why shouldn't a b-wing be a better option for the vette, than say an A-wing (or a jsf if the rebel is hard core enough to have one)? The orignal appeal of JTL was no composite in space, and thats exactly what we are faced with today. I just don't see why a POB ship shouldn't be a fortress, and this is coming from someone who doesn't care anything about them at all.

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You know what, the RotW ships aren't really the problem, they just expose and exaggerate problems that've been with JTL since the start--specifically, that there aren't really different roles out there. Except for dumping missiles at Eta-2s in PVP, there really isn't any point to bombers, for instance. And when it comes to firepower and cap ships, what's the point? Ironically, it's the interceptors that own cap ships, while bombers and heavy fighters are all significantly less effective than an Eta-2.. or an A-Wing, or Interceptor, which have always been enormously better for killing cap ships and PVP than B-Wings or TIE Bombers. The Eta-2 might be even better at these things, but it's not like anyone was ever flying bombers in those situations (or really, any) even before the RotW ships came along.

To get back to the original topic, POBs should be fortresses--they can't avoid damage, so they need to be able to soak it--but not to the degree they'd become if you balanced their components solely with PVP in mind. Even if challenging post-master PVE is sparse right now, it would be short-sighted and irresponsible to use that as an excuse to simply grant them 100,000 HP shields rather than to come up with a combination of factors, such as Doghairedinfant's suggestion, that takes both PVE and PVP into account.