Pilot Archive
Thread: Balance Chart
Page 3 of 3
Qlint
Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:32 pm
#27
SheenaBrelya wrote:
Version 3 of the Chart (there was a version 2, but it wasn't doing anything for me).
Excellant work, and it works for me. I am half way curious as to where the POB ships fall on this chart, but too lazy to do the math.
Kssob
Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:56 pm
#28
Dragon942 wrote:
Kssob wrote:
In the FAQ eh? Should I trust that source?
Would you happen to have the URL of that page, or a link?
It's stickied at the top of the pilot forums. Says Pilot FAQ 3.0 I believe.
Is that where you learned that acceleration of pitch is pitchrate * speed multiplier * engine's pitch? Because all I see there is pitch being a value for maximum rate of turning on the FAQ. What I am asking is: "Is this information game provable, or is it player provided?"
Creaturetaimer
Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:34 pm
#29
SheenaBrelya wrote:
So, I decided I want a visual aid for any discussion about ship "balance." Just the thought of the dicussion gets some peoples' backs up, so I have already kissed good-bye any desire to please everyone. What I want instead is something that at least a significant portion of the Pilot community can point to as a tool to use when comparing one ship chassis to another.
My first attempt has consisted of taking the ship stats from the Pilot FAQ, inserting them into a spreadsheet, and creating a chart comparing Agility to Offense of several chassis types.
Most people at this point should be wondering what I mean by Agility and Offense, while some of the bright members of the audience are already moaning, as this can only lead to a discussion about statistics.
I thought about what Offense and Agility meant to me and how I could use the quantitative measurements available and combine multiple numbers into a single "rating." I'll never admit to being good at such a task, which is why I'm here to get help.
After a little fiddling, I came up with the two required formulae:
Offense:
SQRT(Mass)*((SQRT(Mass)*SQRT(Pilot Weapons)+SQRT(Mass)*SQRT(Turret Weapons)/3))
Agility:
=SQRT(Pitch)*SQRT(Accel+Decel)*(Speed Modifier)
Good lord, those are ugly!
If my Statistics teacher could see me now, he'd be soooo embarassed.
Why all the Square Roots? I don't know, they felt right at the time. Looking at it and figuring out what the formulae are doing, I see them as a waste.
Why is Ordnance not considered at all? Because I got the chart all done before I realized the glaring mistake.
Why Pitch only, but Accel and Decel? Because Pitch seems to always be proportional to Yaw and Roll modifiers, so including all three seemed to do nothing in a comparison, while Accel and Decel were not always the same, so including both did have some minor purpose.
What about X and B-Wing speeds? I used the "combat" speed modifier and ignored the higher "traveling" one.
What I would like is for some of you people to tear down my ugly formulae and build what might be better composite ratings than what those that I have crafted.
For reference, the chart that was created using the original formulae is available here. It serves as a solution to the problem of creting a visual aid, but it is not (to me) yet refined enough to consider pointing to and saying "here, look at this and get an idea of how ships compare to each other."
Shona
*looks at math involved*
/head explodes
Kssob
Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:53 pm
#30
Dragon942 wrote:
It's not. I think you are confused...so read through this discussion we recently had.
Kssob wrote: Is that where you learned that acceleration of pitch is pitchrate * speed multiplier * engine's pitch? Because all I see there is pitch being a value for maximum rate of turning on the FAQ. What I am asking is: "Is this information game provable, or is it player provided?"
I'm not sure how I missed that discussion. But I guess what I am saying is that we don't know approximate corner velocities for any off the listed ships in the FAQ.
SheenaBrelya
Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:08 pm
#31
I could put the POB ships on the chart, but the formula used for the Offense rating simply can't do them justice. They would've had a decent but low rating on chart 1, as chart 1 used Turrets as part of the Offense rating. Chart 3, though, would only use Ordnance from the POB ships, but multiply it with an abnormally large MassRating composite. The effect would be a high Offense Rating, but it would mean little to nothing, as it could be written off as a quirk in the formula. The ARC could be added if I had complete stats, but would be crippled like the Y-Wing and Aggressor (in Chart 3) because that formula doesn't take into account Turrets.
If I consider the Charts as a single player PvE comparison, I can get away with not considering the hitbox without too much backlash about that omission. Without a quanitative method of measuring hitbox, I see no way to make a reasonable objective comparison of them. Ducimus started talking about a way to display what he thought was the hitbox, but I do not know if anything came from it.
The Chart, though far from perfect, gives me essentially what I was looking to achieve. It gives me a visual aid, backed up by hard statistics (using subjective formula), that gives a reasonable idea of how ships compare to each other.
I would love to get some more opinions on how to tweak the formula, but if nothing else I hope it is something to use whenever there is a discussion about relative usefulness of ships pre- and post-RotW.
Shona
If I consider the Charts as a single player PvE comparison, I can get away with not considering the hitbox without too much backlash about that omission. Without a quanitative method of measuring hitbox, I see no way to make a reasonable objective comparison of them. Ducimus started talking about a way to display what he thought was the hitbox, but I do not know if anything came from it.
The Chart, though far from perfect, gives me essentially what I was looking to achieve. It gives me a visual aid, backed up by hard statistics (using subjective formula), that gives a reasonable idea of how ships compare to each other.
I would love to get some more opinions on how to tweak the formula, but if nothing else I hope it is something to use whenever there is a discussion about relative usefulness of ships pre- and post-RotW.
Shona
Dragon942
Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:10 am
#32
SheenaBrelya wrote:
I would love to get some more opinions on how to tweak the formula, but if nothing else I hope it is something to use whenever there is a discussion about relative usefulness of ships pre- and post-RotW.
I think what really needs to be done is make some sort of computer program to calculate a weighted rating stuff automatically. Then you have the user put in weights for each characteristicand have the program sort the craft based on those weights.
For instance, they say missile hardpoints and mass are worth more laser hardpoints and that worth more than turning and out pops a list with the Opressor on top.
You could even have a filter that says only show me Imperial ships, or ships above mass X, or ships with a speed mod above Y.
I just think what people are looking for varies too much to be able to come up with a formula that really gives the best ship for everyone.
SheenaBrelya
Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:35 am
#33
Dragon942 wrote:
I think what really needs to be done is make some sort of computer program to calculate a weighted rating stuff automatically. Then you have the user put in weights for each characteristic and have the program sort the craft based on those weights..... I just think what people are looking for varies too much to be able to come up with a formula that really gives the best ship for everyone.
Was your intention to come up with a post that would mean the most added work involved for me? If so, congrats! I'm having a hard time coming up with a solution to my original question that means more hours devoted than to create a program to handle it. I'll think about it, but don't be surprised if I pass on the coding.
Shona
Dragon942
Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:07 am
#34
SheenaBrelya wrote:
Dragon942 wrote:
I think what really needs to be done is make some sort of computer program to calculate a weighted rating stuff automatically. Then you have the user put in weights for each characteristic and have the program sort the craft based on those weights..... I just think what people are looking for varies too much to be able to come up with a formula that really gives the best ship for everyone.
Was your intention to come up with a post that would mean the most added work involved for me? If so, congrats! I'm having a hard time coming up with a solution to my original question that means more hours devoted than to create a program to handle it. I'll think about it, but don't be surprised if I pass on the coding.
Shona
Haha I wasn't saying you should it. I'm saying that and 'balance' you do on the equations is going to be subjective, so you just just pick what suits you as it probably won't suit everyone. The weights of the characteristcs probably need to be left up to each individual pilots.
On a side note, have you ever used excel? This might be something reletivly easy to do by filling in fields in excel. Would save a lot of programming.
Page 3 of 3